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Advocates for men's rights MUST condemn, loudly and aften, any group that tries to dress up repellant politics in the veneer of equal rights for men. That by itself will not keep feminists from making slanderous accusations, as we have recently seen, but it will accomplish something infinitely more important: keeping the integrity of the men's movement pure.
Feminists have failed miserably on that score, by defending totalitarian head-cases like Catherine MacKinnon even at the cost of their own intellectual integrity. Let's learn from their mistakes.
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So...
We write a press release... and then what? Send it to the papers and the broadcast media and it'll go right in the hopper.
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Advocates for men's rights MUST condemn, loudly and aften, any group that tries to dress up repellant politics in the veneer of equal rights for men.
I agree. We also, however, have to avoid over-policing ourselves. It will be a difficult balance to establish and maintain, and we will make mistakes.
This is going to be a long, difficult, and often confusing struggle. Mostly we need to keep ourselves as pure as possible. I think I'll go for an early workout today.
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by Anonymous User on Friday July 26, @12:53PM EST (#5)
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I agree. We also, however, have to avoid over-policing ourselves. It will be a difficult balance to establish and maintain, and we will make mistakes.
I don't think condemning fascism is "over-policing ourselves," honestly.
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I don't think condemning fascism is "over-policing ourselves," honestly.
I neither stated nor implied that it was.
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While I agree that we need to keep outselves from being associated this particular group and others that may cause harm to children. I think it is equally important that we don't disinfranchise ourselves from groups that actively protest in appropriate places, like the courts and other Government Agencies who take part in the family distruction business.
There most certainly will come a time when true fathers and Mens rights groups will be demonized in the Media in a similar fashion regardless of truth. The Media is not our friend.
Unlike the Feminist Movement, which supported radical manhating from the beginning, we must not do the same.
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If we were to investigate the associations and inter-relationships all of the political groups with which people have identified themselves over the years, I think we would be shocked to find out what some of them were. For example, the association between the Irish Republican Army and the Islamic terrorists of the eighties comes to mind. What's important is for those interested in men's rights, undertaking efforts in that direction, to keep them isolated from one another. Another example: recently the notion of conservativism and liberalism come up on this site, and I was actually surprised to find out that many of us here are liberals. Further, when I read Zubaty's book, I was surprised to find out about his feelings on corporate America. And being a conservative and a disciple of the free market system, I don't agree with all those ideas. C'est la vie.
Each of us has our own agenda, and it seems like they all overlap here, on men's rights. If we're able to focus on the overlap, and not let the differentiating issues interfere, then we'll ultimately be okay, as a movement.
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Good points Frank, and very very true.
Like they say, the enemy of my enemy, is my friend.
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"Each of us has our own agenda, and it seems like they all overlap here, on men's rights. If we're able to focus on the overlap, and not let the differentiating issues interfere, then we'll ultimately be okay, as a movement."
Spoken like a champ. I agree.
However, when a group that is fighting the same cause that I am also insists on adding extraneous politics to the message, then they are not abiding by what you've just written. I may join with them in a battle or two, but I will also feel compelled to expressly state that the additional politics are just that and are not a necessary element of the men's rights movement. Had the other group focused only on men's rights, I usually wouldn't feel a need to do that. The only way to "not let the differentiating issues interfere" is to each keep focused and leave the additional politics behind.
Another thing to think about is that, as our numbers grow, splintering will become inevitable as the need to unite becomes less critical. But even when we divide, the success of the movement may depend largely on whether we can still work together from a distance when needed. And the more we put aside our differences now and get to know each other and bond, the more likely we'll be able to work together at arm's distance in the future. So the present, I believe, is very important for the movement's future success. And an apolitical, focused atmosphere of respect for each other is the best way to accomplish that.
That's why I love mensactivism.org.
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I absolutely agree 100%. The following is not a sermon, but merely a history lesson on the human nature of dissenting veiwpoints.
Today there are over 30,000 Christian denominations, yet Martin Luther, who is arguably the primary person who brought about the reformation did not want to break away from the traditional church. In light of this religions often stated desire (doctrine) to maintain unity and have adherents who are of one mind, the preceding information speaks volumes about the divisiveness of arguements and factions that invariably come about when any group comes together concentrating on issues. The ability to define our objectives, to focus on them exclusive of other agendas is paramount to the success of any organized campaign, especially against one of superior logistical strength.
In the business world there are managers who hold the veiwpoint that competition, while striving to achieve production, or some goal, is healthy, can lead to innovations, etc., but when competiton reaches the point were it turns into conflict, then productivity, employee moral, etc. suffers.
Let us come together for this cause (men's rights) which has so much common ground for all men, for the reason of improving those deplorable conditions that we can effectively address. I'll be the first to say that I have my pet issue (domestic violence), but I am not so selfish that I would ignore a father's rights issue if the opportunity presented itself to "do some good" there. Let us prioritize and work, and the things we disagree on... Let's put them to the side for another day, agree to disagree, and work together for the common good.
One thing is overwhelmingly clear, as oppressed men today, seeking to right our list of injustices, we do certainly find a target rich environment.
Therefore, in my opinion, it is unsound to dilute our strength, attack in all directions at once, and accomplish little or nothing. Whatever we set our sights on, focus, focus, focus, then move on to the next target.
I certainly do not have the patent on strategy and I am always open to superior knowledge and sound logic.
Ray
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Advocates for men's rights MUST condemn, loudly and aften, any group that tries to dress up repellant politics in the veneer of equal rights for men.
I won't be told whom to condemn or not. My policy on groups like the Blackshirts is not to comment on their apparent neo-fascism--why should I have to justify myself because I happen to have a few opinions incidentally related to men's rights in common with the Blackshirts? Does that mean, according to some free-associative process used in lieu of thinking, that I'm a fascist? I don't support fascism, but I see no need to denounce the Blackshirts; my response is, "no comment." This is a calculated response, based on my opinion of prevalent feminist attitudes towards violence, which is to universally condemn it, even when they benefit.
Not only is violence time honored, it has its place. The absolute intolerance of violence in any form is either pacifist or feminist. It is fashionable now to be absolutely intolerant of violence because of feminism; I view the attitude as an insidious, hidden form of anti-male bigotry that condemns all forms of violence as an essentially male phenomenon. In a sense, the violence of the Blackshirts is a response to this attitude; I say this without condoning it. Consider that Germaine Greer advised women to use their feminine wiles in pursuit of the feminist agenda; if men have "violence" and "power" to bring to the men's movement, then Greer's counterpart in the men's movement might well advocate using men's power in pursuit of the masculine agenda.
On the other hand, if you feel the need to denounce some group, then proceed, by all means. It must be lovely to be a spokesman for the men's movement.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @03:25PM EST (#64)
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____Not only is violence time honored, it has its place.
This is stupid. Noone has said the blackshirts committed any acts of violence. This discussion is not about violence.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @07:35PM EST (#99)
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I've managed to distract the Troll! You're absolutely right, Troll: the word "fascism" in no way connotes violence, and it is "stupid" to suggest that it does, according to strict Troll logic. Go find a cogent argument somewhere Troll; save the adjectives for your friends.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @07:38PM EST (#100)
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____ I've managed to distract the Troll! You're absolutely right, Troll: the word "fascism" in no way connotes violence, and it is "stupid" to suggest that it does, according to strict Troll logic. Go find a cogent argument somewhere Troll; save the adjectives for your friends.
That is stupid. You are making stupid assumptions about someone because they disagree with you.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @09:51PM EST (#120)
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What is the disagreement, specifically? I see only name calling by a profoundly stupid moron.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @11:25PM EST (#122)
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____What is the disagreement, specifically? I see only name calling by a profoundly stupid moron.
Beats me. The idiot yelling "stupid troll" is responding to my post that only pointed out to him that the discussion is about fascism and not "violence."
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by Anonymous User on Sunday July 28, @12:01AM EST (#128)
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my post that only pointed out to him that the discussion is about fascism and not "violence."
It didn't "only" make a point, it characterized the point as "stupid", it attempted to control the discussion, and it gave no argument. You are a stupid, controlling little troll.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday July 28, @12:12AM EST (#129)
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____It didn't "only" make a point, it characterized the point as "stupid", it attempted to control the discussion, and it gave no argument. You are a stupid, controlling little troll.
That's stupid. I sought no control. Control is something fascists (which you just may be) seek.
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The following is a page out of my handbook for writing off internet trolls and other put-down artists; my astronomically insightful post was lost after the system crash. -Mars.
The crucial observation to remember about trolls and put-down artists is that the put-down exhausts their contribution to the world; that's it. It's often enough to remind the troll of this, if ignoring him isn't sufficient. There are several reasons why exposing the put-down artist's game is particularly effective:
1) The put-down artist knows, on some level, that he will never contribute anything to the world beyond the put-down. This knowledge is very painful to him, because his put-downs involve invidious comparisons that misleadingly suggest he has something to contribute other than the put-down.
2) Identifying a put-down artist helps the identifier avoid further interaction with the put-down artist, who, once exposed, no longer has anything to gain by persisting.
3) The put-down artist is beyond rehabilitation. It's helpful to repeat this to the put-down artist; to such people it cannot be over-emphasized or repeated too often. The put-down artist never benefits from the knowledge that he is a put-down artist. Any self-knowledge only contributes to his sense of desperation, since he cannot help himself, since he is too untalented and undisciplined to contribute anything more than put-downs to the world, and since he will never reconcile himself to this hopeless, immutable truth.
Reminding the troll and the put-down artist of the kind of creature he is can be an effective antidote to their intrusive presence.
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Men:
There is a 3000 year old proverb, reportedly spoken by a very wise man, that says, "Like apples of gold in settings of silver are words spoken in apt(appropriate) circumstances.
Who among us would volunteer for the job of spokesman for the MEN'S MOVEMENT, yet if want to step up to the plate and take a swing that's exactly what you're doing. We are all spokesmen for the MEN'S MOVEMENT, like it or not.
In as much as we are all now dully appointed spokespeople of the MEN'S MOVEMENT (including myself) I see a need to clarify the conflict between the need for public relations vs. the right to free speech and other constitutional rights and even personal rights.
There is a need to present an image that appeals to the public in such a way as to create support for the cause of the men’s movement. How does one do this without infringing on the constitutional freedoms that we, especially as abused men, need now more than ever? A lot of professional firms and business hire public relations employees and firms to bolster their image with the public to accomplish an ends, whether it is selling widgets, or selling a politician, or even selling a cause.
During the American revolution Thomas Payne was employed as an incendiary propagandist for the cause of American independence. The only problem was that he wouldn’t be quiet, and continued talking and saying things beyond the scope of his job that inflamed people in such a way that it was not beneficial to the cause. It wasn’t his fault. It was just the way he was, and dog gone it, weren’t those founding fathers being a little hypocritical trying to shut him up while they were fighting for freedom. Just because he was “pissing off” a few of the wrong people seemed to really create a problem for those trying to run their “just cause” agenda.
A story goes that Thomas Payne was so persuasive of a rhetorician that years after his death a shop keeper had his bones dug up and hung in his shop window. A sign was placed under it that said, “If Thomas Payne were alive today he would buy...” The ignobility of this act speaks for itself, but it would be nice to have a Thomas Payne today to unleash on the media today, or would it.
To leash or not to unleash that is the question. Is it nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous misfortune or is the solution to legally and persuasively take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them (all the while staying within the boundaries of legal and public relations proprieties)?
Personalities are certainly an issue. It might be a person’s right to adhere to a certain viewpoint and speak his mind, but from a public relations stand point it might not be such a great thing. I have on more than one occasion heard a politician to mournfully state, “It was a p.r. nightmare, or it was a p.r. disaster. One can think of no more flamboyant a public personality than “former” Ohio Congressman Traficant to see a shinning example of one who bombastically exercises his constitutional rights to the fullest extent “to his own detriment.”
Is there a need for all of us as individuals to (not deny) but reign in and manage our personalities in the interest of the goals we have as a group, and thereby eventually serve our own greater good?
Personally, I would rather lose an argument and win a battle than lose a battle and win an argument. It is certainly not as instantly gratifying, but in the long run the gains for outreach the losses. In the end, whether its a game, or a war, or men working for their rights, the only thing that will make a change at the end of the day is a big W on our side.
It requires trust to sacrificially set aside one’s personal interests for the greater interest of a greater good (teamwork). It is certainly asking a lot of men who have already been so badly mistreated so I would merely encourage each of us to at least consider the bigger picture. We all agree that men today have outrageous grievances that need addressing. What is the identity of the Men’s Movement ? Do we have one? What should be the identity of the Men’s Movement to most effectively accomplish our goals. Has anyone outlined and prioritized our goals? Do we have an organizational structure? At this point we appear to be a little disorganized. I have heard lots of grievances, and a number of good proposed solutions, and some people appear to be doing some things, but we appear to lack a cohesiveness that is essential to any organized effort. Can I be so presumptuous as to say I think the MEN'S MOVEMENT is having birthing pains! Yes, and it is truly a wonder to behold. But don't worry, you won't have to get in touch with your politically correct feminine side to be a part of this miracle.
Endeavor, Persevere, Ray
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People should be judged base on their actions and not by something he may have said or something someone thinks he may have said. Any man that supports EQUAL rights for men should be welcomed into the men’s movements with open arms. Period! Otherwise, we can filter out the nazis, and the reactionaries, and the democrats, and the atheists, and the libertarians, and the smokers, etc, etc. And after we are done filtering all the men of impure thought we can have a men’s movement of ZERO members. Stay on the issues and judge people by their actions.
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Stay on the issues and judge people by their actions.
That's fine. I don't approve of their actions, either. I agree with whoever said "Take it downtown."
Fascists have no place in any movement which promotes itself as a movement about freedom.
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That's fine. I don't approve of their actions, either. I agree with whoever said "Take it downtown."
Exactly what crime have the blackshirts committed? You think you can fight tyranny by being a nice boy? What have YOU done that is more effective?
Fascists have no place in any movement which promotes itself as a movement about freedom.
I agree. However, mistakes of thought are the easiest mistakes to make. Have you never been wrong? Exactly how are you going to enlighten the bad boys thoughts if you don’t engage?
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by Anonymous User on Friday July 26, @05:23PM EST (#13)
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_____Exactly what crime have the blackshirts committed? You think you can fight tyranny by being a nice boy? What have YOU done that is more effective?
It sounds likey they are harassing people. As for nightmist, he has accomplished allot, especially by getting YWCA in his town to dump a man hating domestic violence ad.
____I agree. However, mistakes of thought are the easiest mistakes to make. Have you never been wrong? Exactly how are you going to enlighten the bad boys thoughts if you don’t engage?
what the hell does this mean? who had a "mistake of thought?" engage? you want to marry them?
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Exactly what crime have the blackshirts committed? You think you can fight tyranny by being a nice boy? What have YOU done that is more effective?
I said I do not approve of their actions. I did not say their actions were crimes.
I agree. However, mistakes of thought are the easiest mistakes to make. Have you never been wrong? Exactly how are you going to enlighten the bad boys thoughts if you don’t engage?
Sure. I've been wrong before. Who hasn't? It is clear that the leader of this group considers himself a facist. That does not mean he can't support men's rights. I'd encourage it, as a matter of fact, but I don't think the men's movement will benefit from someone supporting facism in the *name of* the men's movement.
IOW, he made a point of associating his men's rights point-of-view with facism, and I, for one, do not agree that facism and the men's movement should go hand-in-hand.
Am I saying that people who have facist tendencies should be ostracized from the movement? Nope. Am I saying that they shouldn't confuse their facism with their men's rights ideals? Yep.
So, perhaps I phrased my original opinion badly.
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If I understand what you said correctly, I agree with you. But it is not the blackshirts that are saying, “fascism is the true way of the men’s movement”, it is you who is making the association.
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If I understand what you said correctly, I agree with you. But it is not the blackshirts that are saying, “fascism is the true way of the men’s movement”, it is you who is making the association.
Yes, it is entirely possible that I am jumping to a conclusion, but based upon their leaders' statements to the press (he brought up the subject of facism, not the reporter), I do not think so.
Time will tell, I suppose. Until then, how about we just disagree on this one issue? :-)
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Absolutely. By the way, I have anarchist/libertarian tendencies – the exact polar opposite of fascism.
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Am I saying that people who have facist tendencies should be ostracized from the movement? Nope. Am I saying that they shouldn't confuse their facism with their men's rights ideals? Yep.
At first I gave this group the benefit of the doubt. That is because the radical feminists are libeling every father's rights group. So, I figured that the Blackshirts were probably victims of the radical feminist anti-male hate. But this article quoting Abbott proves me wrong.
So, I'm going to have to disagree on this one. The reason is that at some point there will need to be a decision on whether to accept money from a men's group that is fascist. I for one would not knowingly accept the financial support. To accept financial support is to permit others to influence the public’s perception of your views.
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Nightmist: Good to have you back. You have been missed.
Frank
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Nightmist: Good to have you back. You have been missed.
I'll second that.
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Nightmist: Good to have you back. You have been missed.
I'll second that.
Guess I'm somewhere in the twelfth area.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Hey nightmist, good to see you. Missed you dude.
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I think that the men's movement has on the whole been better at this than is the feminist movement. The men's movement doesn't have this group-think, agree-or-you're-out-of-the-clique mentality, and that is one of its great strenghts and one of its great weaknesses.
On the one hand, this makes us a free association of independently-thinking people with a common cause. This makes us much less susceptible to defending idiots for the sake of "the movement," as feminism has done.
On the other hand, this makes us a fractious and divided bunch at times, and is why the movement has moved so slowly by comparison with feminism. It's a lot easier to get results when you ruthlessly weed out group members who show signs of dissent, but then we all know where that leads.
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Any man that supports EQUAL rights for men should be welcomed into the men’s movements with open arms.
Now wait a minute Lock. If we do that then we risk having a fascist leader speak on our behalf. Then we become the counterpart of the radical feminist of N.O.W. . Let's do without the fascists. We don't need them.
For example, the guys that I know over at ncfmla.org are having a serious problem with growth. It's been growing so fact that it's becoming a logistics issue. I think those guys would be smart to filter out the fascists and stick with solid citizens of good standing.
Otherwise, the movement takes on an appearance of being desperate for members. That is a bad image, and it alienates otherwise valuable members.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Warb, most fascists are young men and women that don’t know better. You can’t say, “I support EQUAL rights” and say, “I support fascism” at the same time. You can’t have fascism and equal rights at the same time.
Image is definitely an issue, especially since the media is not on our side. That is why you need your good and bad cops. Good cops should project a ‘fatherly’ image. But if good cops can’t get the attention of the media in a way in which the media treats them objectively, then it is up to the bad cops to make some noise.
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.... then it is up to the bad cops to make some noise.
LOL. Well as long as they are the ones getting arrested for police brutality I guess it works for me.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Warb, you are way way too optimistic of what can be achieved by holding hands and singing kum ba ya.
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Warb, you are way way too optimistic of what can be achieved by holding hands and singing kum ba ya.
Sorry, the touchy feely image just doesn't fit me. I just believe there is a better way other than spouting fascist rhetoric like the Blackshirts. But then they are in a different country (Australia I believe) so the are justified in a stronger form of activism. Also, don’t forget that I’m the one encouraging people to report the elite for any possible violation of the law possible. That is quite a militant thing to do in this country. If I see an elite changing a female baby’s diaper in the park, I’ll be dialing the CPS and reporting that person. I’ll be trying to get that person arrested and the child taken away so they can see how it feels to us. Nevertheless, if we had that level of oppression here, I would be using a whole different tactic.
That said. I can appreciate your situation (been there done that) and how it brings out a more militant side. I encourage you to let that militant motivation propel you into constructive forms of activism, and not anarchistic forms that are not as yet called for in the U.S. (even though we are damn close).
I guess I get my optimism from the knowledge that I can see my activism making a real difference. Is the men’s movement at the point of where I want it? NO! There needs to be much more activism. We need people to get off the web and into local men’s activist groups. That’s where the action is taking place. To get where I want to be will require 100's of thousands of men supporting the men's movement. They don't have to be active; they just need to make the donation and be a member of the men’s groups. A few of us can handle the actual activism. Getting our registered numbers up to critical mass is a key milestone. I see that happening; hence there is optimism. Of course, I have no sympathy for lazy men that complain about their victimization while failing to join a group.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Most of what you post is constructive so I have no real problem with your optimism or with your form of activism. However, a few boys spouting fascist rhetoric hear and there is of little or no threat compared to say having 90 percent of the western media controlled by six giant corporations. Yes it is an image problem but only for those who want to make it an issue.
I have supported men’s groups directly. I stopped because I SAW NO RESULTS. Men’s groups have no leadership and are void of strategic thinking. And those are the sad facts. There is a rumor that circulates in feminist circles that goes like this: “90 percent of men are happy or complacent with the way things are.” Sometimes, I think this rumor is true. But there are a few, like you, that sometimes make me wonder whether my assertion is true.
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"Of course, I have no sympathy for lazy men that complain about their victimization while failing to join a group."
Ditto to that, Warble. There are certain e'lists I left because I got so tired of hearing a bunch of loud-mouth-no-action-Internet-whiners who do nothing on the front lines themselves but who, from their cushy, immobile armchairs, are so good at accusing active folks of being "moderates" or of not being radical enough.
Not to bag on anyone in the movement. But it does get tiring.
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"compared to say having 90 percent of the western media controlled by six giant corporations. "
The problem isnt women, its other men.
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Dan Lynch
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"However, a few boys spouting fascist rhetoric hear and there is of little or no threat compared to say having 90 percent of the western media controlled by six giant corporations. Yes it is an image problem but only for those who want to make it an issue."
This is well said, but I don't entirely agree. If you're talking about "threats" to society, then perhaps you're right. But if you're talking about threats to the sucess of the men's movement - which is what I took us to be talking about - then I differ. If we are seen yolked together with avowed fascists (I'm assuming they are, although that could be a media slant), then it threatens the speed of our success as a movement. Our successes comes in increments, and in the meantime genfems are coming up with new myths to spread all the time. We're catching up. But associating with fascists or wackos or hatemongers can seriously hinder those increments.
I can still support their men's rights message by demonstrating across the street without a black shirt on.
"I have supported men’s groups directly. I stopped because I SAW NO RESULTS. Men’s groups have no leadership and are void of strategic thinking."
Well, I made all sorts of small changes even when I was alone in college and in the county system. There are tons of things to do. I began alone by printing letters and articles in local papers. Eventually I found someone else doing it in my area. That person happened to be Glenn Sacks. Before he was known he was stirring things up on his campus. Eventually I began doing things like petitioning Barnes & Noble for a men's section and speaking out at public county meetings and asking for a commission for men and going to others for support. I couldn't believe the people at these meetings when it came to men's issues. Eventually supporters will come out of nowhere. You can also write letters to your local leaders asking for a commission for men and slowly build a history of denied requests which can later be used for lawsuits or other things. There are tons and tons of things to do even if there's no men's group in your area. The opportunities are endless.
I'm not saying YOU haven't done anything, BTW. You've probably done plenty. But the statement you expressed rings of despair, which is somewhat understandable but is also inactive, discouraging, and untrue.
There are LOTS of changes taking place, slowly. We're doing all kinds of things in LA even though we're only a tiny group of volunteers. We are moving from the internet the streets. From web-whining to bullhorn-bitching. It takes only one individuala at first. When individuals act up, groups will eventually form. And it doesn't take skilled, charismatic leaders. Hell, look at me. I've got practically no experience as a group leader. Ultimately it's not even what I want to do. But I'm doing it until the right person can take over. And NCFM LA sees my heart and acts up with me, regardless of our imperfections.
When someone sits around complaining that there's no groups or that the groups aren't doing anything, the complainer is at fault for doing nothing and the complaint becomes self-fullfilling. That's been happening way too long in this movement. The time to lock-n-load is NOW.
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Mark, my snide “kum ba ya” remark was in response to Warb’s snide remark. The good thing about men’s boards is that one can take thing into context and move on and not have to spend time apologizing and counter apologizing. My intentions have never been to criticize “moderate” men activist. If my comments come out as such, I apologize, and I will try to be more careful with my comments.
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Lockandload, I think my own comments weren't clear. I'm not accusing you of attacking "moderates." There are others, in certain elists, who go on and on about their being "insurgents" and putting down "moderates" and actually these so-called insurgents aren't doing anything except yacking away on the internet and criticizing those on the front lines. I never thought for a minute that you were one of these. Thanks for pointing this out.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @02:06PM EST (#60)
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____Warb, you are way way too optimistic of what can be achieved by holding hands and singing kum ba ya.
this is not a good description of warb.
has anybody else noticed that letslockandload preaches reservation of judgment but is more than willing to give us his own judgments without basis in fact when someone disagress with him?
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The genfems couldn't have thrown a better hand grenade into our midst. Not to worry... The struggle will be long, difficult, and often confusing. But we will win.
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The problem with the black shirts is that they are using tactics that are associated with radical groups that the majority of people dismiss as either racist, sexist, or just plain stupid.
There is a incredible opportunity here for less radical father's rights groups to speak up and clear the air. If the "blackshirts" become the image that the public associates with the father's rights movement, and by extension the men's rights movement, it will cause the uphill battle into an uphill battle in the mud.
I would hope that while the media's eye is focused on fathers that other groups take this chance to be heard.
Tony
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I would hope that while the media's eye is focused on fathers that other groups take this chance to be heard.
This is something of an opportunity. Fathers' rights groups in Australia should contact the media for interviews, while attention is on this situation.
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Father’s rights groups should CLEARLY state what they stand for. And should leave it at that. The media and genfems are part of what we are fighting against. They are not going to say nice things about men’s groups no matter how much you wish it so.
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That could be the beginning of an "Inter-Group Mission Statement", even a statement COMPLETELY devoid of any political leanings, although the very nature of some of the statements may be taken as political, but I would think the core issues are what we would find the most agreement on naturally, like "We fight for equal protection under the law, not JUST for men, but for EVERYone!" Bye-bye to affirmative action and feminist perogatives, and welcome back a meritocracy, where people earn what the have, not have it given on a platter because they are female, or male, or anything else.
Disclaimer: Everything I post is of course my own opinion. If it seems harsh, Feminazis just piss me off!
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by Anonymous User on Friday July 26, @07:27PM EST (#31)
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That could be the beginning of an "Inter-Group Mission Statement", even a statement COMPLETELY devoid of any political leanings, although the very nature of some of the statements may be taken as political, but I would think the core issues are what we would find the most agreement on naturally, like "We fight for equal protection under the law, not JUST for men, but for EVERYone!" Bye-bye to affirmative action and feminist perogatives, and welcome back a meritocracy, where people earn what the have, not have it given on a platter because they are female, or male, or anything else.
Well said.
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Exactly!
And let people state what they sand for before we pass judgment.
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This is possibly a stretch, but has anyone checked to see if there is any affiliation betweeen individuals in this group and any radical feminists or their associates? Call me a conspiracy theorist if you want, but I would not rule out the possibility that this action by the “Blackshirts” was a planned and instigated negative public relations scheme by radical feminists to intentionally discredit men and associate them with a negative, counter productive approach to men’s rights.
With that being said, it goes without saying that the alternative view is also possible. In this case are these (men) now so battered, disempowered and helpless that they have turn to this kind of action like the little mouse holding his finger up in a sign of defiance as a giant bird sweeps down on his being. Perhaps they are so wiped out and desperate in this particular case, that their behavior is nothing more than a display of isolated male victims engaging in one last, great act of defiance? If so, then that is not too encouraging.
However, if this is the case, all is not lost. We would all be better off to learn from this. We would be well advised to identify any and all mistakes that were made, that we can spot in this story. In my opinion, mistakes should not be avoided, because of any shame or negative feelings associated with them. Mistakes are powerful and beneficial guidance that give us direction in, what not to do, and ways we should not to go.
Ray
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If these men are legitemate protesters than they should be commended for what they are doing. As far as the men's rights issues are concerned.
Who cares about fascism? So far I have read the report and it still looks like a misquote from an Idealistic guy who is trying to change the current meaning of the word Fascism.
I would be going to Abbot himself, and if anyone can get me if phone number I will call him personnally to find out whats going on and what he meant. He's talking about unity and a republic, there is nothing in his statements about oppresion or overt total control. He said he was anti-dictatorship which is what we all are, so what he says tomato and we say tomaato. Lets go by his words until he is proven wrong. All his numbers add up so far and there is no proof even put forth by the authorites of anything otherwise.
I can tell you right now these guys werent harming kids in anyway shape or form. If the kids were in the house than I have a feeling that it was added to the list "well they were harrassing kids" ya there own kids that they can't see because that fuking bitch in there won't let them. Stop thinking like a feminist. We don't own the men's movement and nobody does. We should be trying hard to clearify the situation for ouselves. In fact get a straight from the horses mouth interview with this guy Abbot to confirm some statements and or intentions.
Lets not chop this down until we get the whole story. We already know the media is tainting the otherside of the story and have for everything men's rights has tried to do. Even though I believe picketing a person's perticular house is not my objective I want to hear from Abbot.
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Friday July 26, @08:31PM EST (#34)
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I would be going to Abbot himself, and if anyone can get me if phone number I will call him personnally to find out whats going on and what he meant. He's talking about unity and a republic, there is nothing in his statements about oppresion or overt total control.
The Soviet Union was also called a "republic."
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The Soviet Union was also called a "republic."
And they had a very similar constitution.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Still its good to see that guys are claiming ownership of the movement , it means that they are taking it personal and will take great care in its progress. Maybe Im wrong, maybe its what we really need.
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Dan Lynch
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"The Soviet Union was also called a "republic." "
So is the United States.
,
Dan Lynch
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Tchnically the United States IS a Republic.
The Soviet Union was also supposed to be "socialist".
Thus the misuse of a word destroy the value of the word?
One reason the U.S. is a republic as oppossed to a pure democracy is to protect the rights of everyone. In order to ban freedom of speech for instance, you need a constitutional amendment. Otherwise, it doesn't matter what the majority *in their haste to be sheep-like* votes on.
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This is actually becomeing one of the better conversations and debates I have read in a long time. I am not sure if anyone is aware of this but we are beginning to formulate what the men's movement is and is not.
We also do not have to accept everyone that claims to be part of the men's movement. One of the pieces of evidence that CANOW and other feminists are using to claim thatthe father's rights group and men's rights group is just an attempt to subjugate men is the infamous "Father's Manifesto." Many leaders in the men's and father's rights group were tricked into putting their name on this blantant piece of hate material.
I am for protests. I am not for intimidation.
The really interesting point is that noone calls protests by women or other "minority" groups as intimidation.
Tony
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We also do not have to accept everyone that claims to be part of the men's movement.
Tony, can you please give us a list of the groups you think are unworthy of being members of the men’s movement. Do you understand what “imputed income” is? Are you in the men’s group for sentimental reasons or you one of those discarded dads? Are you in the men’s movement because you hate women or are you a man that has had a taste of our wonderful system of justice?
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Well first off I have answered this question in previous posts. If you want to know read some of my previous posts. In summary I could say yes to all your questions in one form or another.
A list of groups is irrelevant and a leading question. The father's rights movement does not need to welcome everyone that claims to be interested in father's rights IF they do things they morally disagree with. Read some of Warren Farrell's articles and you will find that even he mentions groups that are on the fringe and do not represent the majority of men who are involved in the men's movement.
In general I can understand the cathartic reasons for many of the venom filled posts and sites. I would much rather have anger expressed verbally and in peaceful protest than being expressed through physical violence. The simple fact is I do not have to nor want to be associated with anyone that advocates violence to obtain any goal.
My belief though is that the world needs to expand their defintion of gender oppression to include men. I see an enourmous amount of energy and time spent on challenging and reacting to issues that are rasied by feminists. All this ends up doing is leading the conversation into the feminist sphere of discussion. For example, when an issue such as rape is discussed you NEVER hear about the rape of one million men in prisons. When we discussed the recent CANOW report it was in reaction to their statements. Women's groups are controlling which issues are focus on. As a result they are indirectly controlly the direction of the men's movement. While some groups are being proactive, such as the Los Angeles branch of NCFM, the vast majority of men only speak up when a feminist group has raised a particular important issue.
What warms my heart is when I see men picking issues such as the recent Progressive Insurance advertisement and writing to the group.
In closing, my vote is still out on the blackshirts until I learn more about them. I distrust the way the media represents any male issue.
Tony
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Read some of Warren Farrell's articles and you will find that even he mentions groups that are on the fringe and do not represent the majority of men who are involved in the men's movement.
That is my point. They are not a threat. By advocating exclusion rather than engagement are you not being hypocritical?
The father's rights movement does not need to welcome everyone that claims to be interested in father's rights IF they do things they morally disagree with.
I agree with rape, child abuse and things of that nature. But not with political thought. Father’s rights are NOT the Boy Scouts it is about overthrowing a system of tyranny.
The simple fact is I do not have to nor want to be associated with anyone that advocates violence to obtain any goal.
You don’t have to and no one is forcing you. Take a look at this link and tell me what you think about violence. You think the genfems are not using violence? What do you call incarcerating a man for reason of failing to meet his imputed income?
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<< speak up when a feminist group has raised a particular important issue. What warms my heart is when I see men picking issues such as the recent Progressive Insurance advertisement and writing to the group. >>
Personally I believe this is part of the progress. Men are learning to defend themselves against the bullshit. With the ability to defend themselves the knowledge of '"hay men are being raped non stop in prison and way more than what women are anywhere'" This may in the beginning be a defensive measure but it has unbelievable progressive measures. It raises the issue and forces thought.
So Tony I dissagree with you partially in that by countering the fems is useless as if anyone who wants to compete with them rationally will have to 'dig up' information. In doing so other issues will surfice. I agree whole heartedly with your research and I hope you continue as its a part of the puzzle and thats what it is isnt it a puzzle. You have your piece I have mine and lockandload has his. This is beauty at its finest.
We can not tell each man to do this or that or this is the right way for the men's movement or not. Assuming we all know right from wrong we can learn to utilize each man's contribution to the whole as best we can. No one man owns the men's movement we all just own our part of it and to be successfull we have to co-operate and work off eachother to make forward movement. Personally I like pointing out the flaws of the fembots studies and tests, I don't expect to convert a fembot but I do expect to convert the average everyday person with reasonable conclusions. This takes considerable tact but it is a work in progress. I also believe in the cosmic dancer and that is literally being able to jump from style to style in less than a heartbeat. But I am a warrior. I was born to fight, I live to fight and I will die fighting. I am just lucky that god has set it to me to fight the good fight.
<<You don’t have to and no one is forcing you. Take a look at this link and tell me what you think about violence. You think the genfems are not using violence? What do you call incarcerating a man for reason of failing to meet his imputed income? >>
I agree with lockandload, to think for a second that jail is not an extreme force of brute violence is a mistake. A false accusation should be likened to attempted murder and nothing short of it. A police officer who with holds evidence that will exonerate someone from a crime should be charged with attempted murder. Its no joke. If someone can be serverly charged for uttering death threats than forcible emprisonment should be a capital punishment offence.
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Dan Lynch
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What an issue! Here I am all ready to grab the bull by the horns, and this story has never been posted on MensActivism.
There have already been two movies done, brutally documenting this terrifying reality: "American Me," starring Edward James Olmos, et. al." (I hope I get these names right) and, "An Innocent Man," starring Tom Selleck, et. al. Do you like that 2nd title? I personally like the 2nd movie better than the first and would recommend it as a must see for this group. Go out and rent it this week end if you need to take a break from Men's Actv. It'll give you fire for your righteousness and courage and insight when you write back to us/me/us, whoever.
The Hollywood story line, concerning Selleck's character outside of prison, and especially the ending, strike me as the weakest part, but the prison part is right out of the reports posted on MND this past week or so, and was the first thing to pop into my mind when I finished reading the 1st one.
A lot of men in this movement are:
1. innocent men who've already visited the gray bar hotel.
2. living under FemiNazi-American domestic violence law, where any false accusation against you in the past will be used to sway a jury against you in any future cases (my layman's interpretation).
3. living under the threat of being in the position depicted in the Tom Selleck prison roll.
In your mind take the part out of Selleck's role where he is in prison, now put your own story of victimization at the hands of the legal system around that imagery and tell me how far away you are from being some bigger man's play thing. To warn you all, there is also the valid issue of racism that comes out of all this too, (another valid topic, but better suited to another place and time/according to my opinion & I think,MensAct.guidelines) but don't let that sidetrack or dilute the outrage you feel for the ongoing, government sponsored, and condoned sexual battery of tens of thousands of men.
You are closer to this than you could ever image.
Lastly, We as men today are all digital warriors on the front lines of new war in the time of the new order under the boot and under the control of the information governments. Arm yourselves with your personal computers, your VCR's, your scanners, your copiers, your digital cameras, etc. and go out and legally get that truth and publish it! This is still a free country in name only so draw the line on the fascist tyrannts who are even now making further inroads to overpower and anhialate you in this area. The pen is mightier than the sword is a statement that is a little dated today, but it still means that the power of communication to convey your message is the power that is used to rule the masses. One picture is worth a thousand words. This power will free you from the frustration of your anger, and the paralysis of your FemiNazi government imposed disempowerment. Go forth, document and publish, and may the truth be your guiding light. Most of all, do it graciously and in peace. Now Go!
AMEN, Ray
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2. living under FemiNazi-American domestic violence law, where any false accusation against you in the past will be used to sway a jury against you in any future cases (my layman's interpretation).
Quite an accurate interpretation. This is exactly as the pheminist intend men to be treated. It is a key reason that we have the highest male criminalization rate in the word.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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I never said that replying to feminist claims is useless. I frequently challenge feminist rhetoric in classes when appropriate to the conversation. I do not rant constantly but attempt to pick and choose my issues and time. If I challenge every issue I will be dismissed as a nutcase. I have had considerable success with this approach. [Even if my grade has suffered accourdingly by speaking out on essays, but going from an A to a B for moral reasons is accceptable to me.]
The problem I do have with what I see as the men's movement is that the vast majority of it is reactive instead of proactive. Even the blackshirts group is for the most part reactive. For the most part the men's movement is fragmented because each group has its independent focus: father's rights, prison issues, psychological issues, health issues, etc.
There are no major mens groups that act as a clearing house for issues and focus the attention of all people interested in men's issues on one of the topics. (ALthough NCFM is slowly changing this.)
In whole trying to counter violence with more violence won't work in the long term. Especially when the current atmosphere of gender theory portrays violence as male and as a means for oppression and not resistance. A very similar condition existed with the Black rights movement as well. Radical black activist groups were similarly suppressed and equally dismissed by the public at large but they did gain media attention. It was not until more moderate and "rational" resistance groups that used passive but persistance methods did any serious change occur. At their core blackshirts have the right idea but they are being a bit too "over-the top" in thier dress and rhetoric.
As I have mentioned before this is a perfect opportunity to have moderate father's rights groups speak up and show what men's groups are really trying to accomplish.
Tony
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This really has been an amazing thread! It's like a satori of sorts going on, like our 'egregor' is quickening after a nap.LOL! Just a few points where I'll add my 2 cents. Personally, I LOVE what the Blackshirts are doing, and I understand why. I'm equally surprised that hasn't happened in Canada, England, and a few other places in which they have mostly a Socialist system that crushes dads, men in general, and families. I think the name would be awesome, IF ONLY it hadn't already been used by what has previously been known as the Blackshirts, etc. But the name has force and much power to it. If I lived there, I would be one. If there was one here, I would be one, period. Do I have the means to organize it myself? ....No. But collectectively we could if we wanted. We are, if you haven't already noticed, moving towards a more substantive, and basic, expression of why we are mad enough to fight for these things. And when I say fight, I also include in there the reserving of violence as a last resort, not on my own like some whacked out depraved lone disenfranchised father (which is as the media would portray it) but as a man among other men who collectivelly wait, and work, and wait, and work. Taking one hit after another but collectively saying "not yet, lets try this instead", taking another hit, and patiently waiting until we ALL know, and EVERYone else knows but at that point they are too afraid to admit it, that it is time. I think we will all know when that time comes, if it comes, because we wait while we trust that our faith in basic human decency hasn't been overturned by the hypnotic effects of Feminist propoganda on the populus. A little song by the Police from ages ago, "The Truth hits everybody", and that truth will be pervasive. While we are still awake, because we stay in communication, the thieves will come thinking they have put us into a sleepy hypnotic state. While the new security measures are being undertaken by government, I think it is important to start researching for some encryption techniques to use in communications, as well as the ideas used in recent music sharing systems like sharebear and Kazaa; basically one creates a network, or intra-net, that no one has access to for snooping. Thus, no fear of C*rn^v@r!. Anyway, must go now, muffins burning....
Disclaimer: Everything I post is of course my own opinion. If it seems harsh, Feminazis just piss me off!
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Jeez, all that and didn't put in why I responded to this post! Male rape in prison has always been a hard one for me to sell in arguments with feminist because they always conclude that they must have done somnething to be there, but yes Ray, I think it really is important to hit on this on a lot, because it also points out that even though women commit as much crime, commit as much violence, that the overwhelming majority of prison population is men, not because they are more guilty, but because it makes thier 'system' profitable.
Disclaimer: Everything I post is of course my own opinion. If it seems harsh, Feminazis just piss me off!
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<<that the overwhelming majority of prison population is men, not because they are more guilty, but because it makes thier 'system' profitable.>>
Did you know that it is more expensive to house women than it is men?
.
Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @03:31PM EST (#65)
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___ A list of groups is irrelevant and a leading question. The father's rights movement does not need to welcome everyone that claims to be interested in father's rights IF they do things they morally disagree with.
In fact, Warren Farrell has publicly stated that he is not a member of ANY men's movement. I tend to agree with him on that. I'm going to support men's rights, but I do not need to associate with fascists to do it.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @03:35PM EST (#68)
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____Did you know that it is more expensive to house women than it is men?
That is because the system caters to their wants and needs while male prisoners are told "tough. you are in prison."
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That figures, doesn't it? LOL!
Disclaimer: Everything I post is of course my own opinion. If it seems harsh, Feminazis just piss me off!
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @12:16AM EST (#45)
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Ray, You are literaly one in a million.
'Glad to have you here!
Thundercloud.
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while me and my 2nd wife kathy were being evicted,
she was putting in a new kitchen.
while my truck was being repossed, she was buying a new car.
while my liscence was being suspended for non payment of $25 seatbelt voilation, she was buying a new computer for my son.
my inability to meet my financial needs has lead to loss of costruction liscence.inability to support the privledge of driving
I'm rambling
in short
my life, my livlyhood, and my freedom have been threatend
her feelings of fear are more important then my right to bear arms
not only do I support these black shirts I applaude them
when i see a cop towing away some poor bastards car because he could not afford to pay his bills I see a tyrant
a judge used to stand for equality
I feel like a second class citezen
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<<a judge used to stand for equality
I feel like a second class citezen>>
So who exactly are we calling 'Fascists'?
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @03:21PM EST (#62)
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___So who exactly are we calling 'Fascists'?
Probably the people who assume the label, like the Blackshirts did.
You keep forgetting that John Abbott HIMSELF says he is a fascist.
That is not to say that our current femi-crap court system isn't fascist as well, but why would we want to trade one fascist for another. That is just stupid.
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<<That is not to say that our current femi-crap court system isn't fascist as well, but why would we want to trade one fascist for another. That is just stupid. >>
I highly recomend reading the Art of War.
Forcing them to wage a war forces them to spend money and make error. If the blackshirts aren't breaking any laws than why should we care? Abbot openly said he was a fascist? Did you read his definition of Fascist? There is a difference between our defintion and their definition. Abbot proclaimed he is a fascist under a personal or historical revised definition. We call the fembots nazis , socialists, fasscists because thats how they act and actions speak louder than words.
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @06:34PM EST (#80)
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____I highly recomend reading the Art of War.
Already have. You, apparently, have not.
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<<Already have. You, apparently, have not. >>
Gee good one.
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Dan Lynch
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What is just even MORE stupid is your refusal to think about the words he used. He refered back to its original meaning and used the word in it's LITERAL sense. Sorry I had to spell that out for you, but you seem to grab at straws like that. You must be a feminist?
Disclaimer: Everything I post is of course my own opinion. If it seems harsh, Feminazis just piss me off!
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"not only do I support these black shirts I applaude them"
I say the same. Screw the timid method.
Brought to you by the sham mirrors.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @03:23PM EST (#63)
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____I say the same. Screw the timid method.
This is stupid. You think that beacuse someone is not a fascist he is timid?
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I say much of the father's/men's movement up to now has been timid. And so is hiding behind Anonymous User.
Brought to you by the sham mirrors.
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And yes Marc -- in case you're reading this -- I do appreciate what the NCFM is doing, and the recent things that have gone on.
Brought to you by the sham mirrors.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @04:51PM EST (#71)
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____I say much of the father's/men's movement up to now has been timid. And so is hiding behind Anonymous User.
So are you saying you are pro-fascism in the men's movement?
Charlie Chaplin
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<<So are you saying you are pro-fascism in the men's movement? >>
Your fucking dumb. Try to seperate the two issues if you can work your brain wires that hard. None of what those blackshirt guys are doing is even remotely centred around fascism. They are pissed off because their lives are being ruined. So they are standing up to the machines that are ruining them. No one is going to replace them with anybody we are just looking at what they are doing. It is possible to both commend and condemn what the black shirts are doing at the same time. Fascism = bad, fighting for fair treatment = good. Yet we still have yet to hear what his difinition of fascism is. Abbot has already said its not what everyone thinks it is. If that were the case we should drop Wendy McElroy like a hot potato for being a feminist.
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @06:31PM EST (#78)
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____Your fucking dumb. Try to seperate the two issues if you can work your brain wires that hard. None of what those blackshirt guys are doing is even remotely centred around fascism.
That is not what there leader said in the news reports.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @06:32PM EST (#79)
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Charlie Chaplin
That won't work. You have to sign your REAL name, like "AFG" does. Heh. :)
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I say much of the father's/men's movement up to now has been timid. And so is hiding behind Anonymous User.
Being an AU is not without good cause. There are many men who would loose their jobs because of anti-male pheminist in the work place. It is no longer uncommon for male activist to be accused of creating a hostile environment at work when the pheminists learn of their activism. I don't care if we have 1 million AUs. I just want to see the activism making a difference. In fact, I encourage men to remain Anon’s at work. Never openly reveal your male activism at work. It’s just too damn risky in this anti-male hate environment.
Gees! With all of the false accusations, libel, and slader being spread by the pheminists, it's a wonder that anybody is able to come forward at all.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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They look like fascists. They act like fascists. They say they're fascists. I conclude they are fascists.
Dan Lynch wrote:
Who cares about fascism?
Nobody, really. The word has been a generic insult for fifty years. Teenagers call their parents fascists. It's come to mean something vaguely nasty and authoritarian.
"The official doctrine of the Fascist movement was as fraudulent as the concept of corporativism and as disorganized as the mind of its leader... Fascism was declared to be the antithesis of liberalism and democracy and socialism. Anyone who desired to know why this should be considered a recomendation, or what fascism gave to the individual that these philosophies did not found it difficult to get a straight answer..." Craig - Europe Since 1914
Fascism is the cult of the leader, the strong man. Fascism is what the leader says it is.
Fascism promised "freedom through authoritarianism and heroism and nobility through discipline and sacrifice."
From that promise came the governments of Musolini and Hitler.
Dan Lynch wrote:
He's talking about unity and a republic, there is nothing in his statements about oppresion or overt total control.
"In general, the line taken was that these older philosophies sacrificed the ideal of the community and the nation to a false conception of freedom."
Communism is the feminine, "caring', version of totalitarianism. Fascism is the masculine, "principled" version of totalitarianism. Neither one has any use for individual dignity, choice or rights.
From a fascist text for 8-year-olds:
"A child who, even while not refusing to obey asks, "Why," is like a bayonet made of milk... "You must obey because you must," said Mussolini, when explaining the reasons for obedience."
Dan Lynch wrote:
So far I have read the report and it still looks like a misquote from an Idealistic guy who is trying to change the current meaning of the word Fascism.
Yeah, right. "Hitler and Mussolini screwed up and gave fascism a bad name. I'll do it right!"
Ray wrote:
In this case are these (men) now so battered, disempowered and helpless that they have turn to this kind of action like the little mouse holding his finger up in a sign of defiance as a giant bird sweeps down on his being. Perhaps they are so wiped out and desperate in this particular case, that their behavior is nothing more than a display of isolated male victims engaging in one last, great act of defiance? If so, then that is not too encouraging.
No, it's not encouraging. I am afraid it is a harbinger of things to come.
Among the first supporters of fascism were Italian war veterans.
"They came home expecting some sign of gratitude for their service and some evidence that their sacrifices had helped to produce a better Italy. They found neither. Their reward was often the discovery that their former jobs were gone and that to appear in the streets in uniform was to court abuse and assault, since Socialist antiwar propaganda took violent forms."
It isn't hard to substitute "family" for "Italy" in that paragraph and "as a man" for "in uniform."
The promises of fascism are seductive to men who are suffering, alienated and outcast. The danger is not that society might associate fascist groups with the men's movement. The danger is that suffering men will choose fascism over the men's movement. The words "Fascism" and "evil" get thrown around a lot these days. Make no mistake, Fascism is evil. Over 30 million people died in the last century because of it.
I don't know if fascism can really grow today or not. It would seem that there are enough suffering men to make that a possibility. I am afraid the Blackshirts are just the first and we will see more and more fascist organizations filled with alienated men. I hope I'm wrong.
We do hear men's activists making warnings on the order of "If society doesn't wake up to what's happening, then the heavy shit's gonna come down, man." They are right, and they are wrong.
They are right because we can see the results, the glimmering of fascism. They are wrong because they are placing the responsibility in the wrong place.
We are the one's who are awake to the sufferings and problems of men, society isn't. It is our responsibility to fight the heavy shit coming down. Why? Because there is no one else to do it.
The Blackshirts are a sign of our failure. Nothing good can come of them. The men's movement has failed to improve the conditions that create these men and it has failed to provide them with an alternative - potent, effective organizations and methods for changing the wrongs society inflicts on men.
I have failed them. I don't want to be here. I'm not a victim. I'm happy with my life. I do my job, pay the mortgage, have a woman I love and am free to pursue my interests in all the fascinating people and ideas the universe has to offer. I have lots of things I'd rather do than send emails and post to this board.
But I am here. It's the minimum my conscience will allow me to get away with. I should do more. I am here because I see what is happening around me. I am a member of a community and people in that community are getting hurt. Those people, my society, need me. Our relatives, our friends, our communities, our countries, our societies need us. They need the men's movement.
Because we're the only ones who can stop the heavy shit from coming down.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @04:56PM EST (#72)
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By God, Larry, that was the most well-written post I've seen on this whole thread. Are you a historian, by any chance? You seem to have studied history well, if you are not.
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AU,
Fuck the writing. What is your responsibility? What are you going to do?
P.S.- Just an old history major with a bunch of old textbooks.
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<<""Yeah, right. "Hitler and Mussolini screwed up and gave fascism a bad name. I'll do it right!" ">>
You must be kidding.
<<But I am here. It's the minimum my conscience will allow me to get away with. I should do more. I am here because I see what is happening around me. I am a member of a community and people in that community are getting hurt. Those people, my society, need me. Our relatives, our friends, our communities, our countries, our societies need us. They need the men's movement. >>
Well keep sticking to the minimum , Larry. If you can get by without taking any chances why ruin a good thing? You can always come to the post board and write some warm and fuzzy anecdote and flex your knowledge of history and skip over the living breathing people you point out as flawed. Why don't you take your writing graces and make a spin on what thes men are doing like what Ray has done and tell people how sad it is that we or they are resorting to this.
I suppose it is unmanly to be a victim so we shouldn't look at these 'fascists' as victims but as potential threats to our meagre pathetic existances waiting for crumbs to fall from the table of life. Sun Tzu if thought him(Abbot) an enemy would be his friend and use him for what his purposes endeared. Christ would have made him his friend because Christ would have thought of the potential resource this Abbot could be for his cause, but Christ would still have sought out to reset Abbot on the right path. You set out to demolish him at the gates because of a misunderstanding. And I dont give a shit what history has told us what 'fascism' is, the issue here is what Abbot thinks fascism is and what it is he's trying to promote. I also think its a mistake to use a term that is understood with suffering but I will take the words from him regardless.
Take the good from the bad, use the good disregard the bad. This isnt the time to shoot them down its a time to start forcing politicians to answer why these groups feel disgruntled as Tony has said.
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Dan Lynch
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You must be kidding.
Dan,
No. I'm not.
Well keep sticking to the minimum , Larry... Why don't you take your writing graces and make a spin on what thes men are doing like what Ray has done and tell people how sad it is that we or they are resorting to this.
You're right, Dan. That's what I'm asking myself. I figure many other men are in the same fence-straddling position I'm in and that's why I wrote it. It's a decision each man has to make for himself. Your admonitions and challenges, your contempt or respect, mean little to me in this decision. It's too important for that. It's my life and my own self-respect that are at issue.
I suppose it is unmanly to be a victim so we shouldn't look at these 'fascists' as victims but as potential threats to our meagre pathetic existances waiting for crumbs to fall from the table of life.
Manly or unmanly has nothing to do with it. Yes, these men are victims. But being a victim does not excuse you from responsibility for your choices and the consequences of your choices. You know that.
These men are making what I consider a wrong choice. Even though their suffering is real, their choice understandable and their actions may benefit us in the short run, it's still the wrong choice.
We need to say so and offer them a better choice. I am acknowledging that that is my responsibility. I don't know if I can make good on it.
And I dont give a shit what history has told us what 'fascism' is, the issue here is what Abbot thinks fascism is and what it is he's trying to promote. I also think its a mistake to use a term that is understood with suffering but I will take the words from him regardless.
We disagree. I think when he says fascism that he means fascism. He is so fascinated by it that he either doesn't see or doesn't care about the associations he is invoking. That is more than a mere mistake.
This isnt the time to shoot them down its a time to start forcing politicians to answer why these groups feel disgruntled as Tony has said.
Yes, it is the time to start forcing politicians to answer. Yes, the Blackshirts are creating that opportunity. But "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" only goes so far. Nothing good will come of embracing, encouraging or commending them in any way. I can't prove it, but that is my conviction.
If we like their street protest ideas, let's use them, but without the poisonous ideology.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @06:59PM EST (#86)
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____Manly or unmanly has nothing to do with it. Yes, these men are victims. But being a victim does not excuse you from responsibility for your choices and the consequences of your choices. You know that.
Apparently, he does NOT know that. I dont know why he and lockandload are so upset that we are not all rallying behind this group of self-proclaimed fascists. If they want to support them go ahead. I will make up my own mind thank you very much.
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"Nothing good will come of embracing, encouraging or commending them in any way. I can't prove it, but that is my conviction. "
I don't see how it will hurt by embracing them. Drawing them into our group or finding out more about them. You speak as though you know this guy personally. Do you?
So far they havent committed a crime and have done things to avoid committing crimes. Sounds good, unless the laws are unreasonable which I think that by revealing your face is an unreasonable law.
You sound like a good guy so I will spare you of any critisim as you have put a great spin on the fact that you are "sitting on the fence" which as you have said many men are. But the men's movement shouldnt be about people doing us any favours its about saving yourself. Eventually it will come to you whether you think it will or not. First they came for the jews, then the blacks , then the gays then the polish and in all these times I never stood up because I was neither of those things. Now they have come for me and theres no one left to stand up for me.
Your a history buff, you may know who and how the original quote goes. If you do please post it I would like to copy it and use it. Personally I say let those people work out the conflict and lets see where it takes them. Point out the issues concerned to us and see what happens. I wish I could find this Abbot guy, I like to talk to him personally and get his version.
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @07:02PM EST (#89)
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____You sound like a good guy so I will spare you of any critisim as you have put a great spin on the fact that you are "sitting on the fence" which as you have said many men are. But the men's movement shouldnt be about people doing us any favours its about saving yourself.
If you believe this then why do you want to do a group of fascists the favor of lending them your support instead of fighting for your rights and freedoms AGAINST tyranny and not FOR it.
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"If you believe this then why do you want to do a group of fascists the favor of lending them your support instead of fighting for your rights and freedoms AGAINST tyranny and not FOR it. "
Probably because I am smarter than you are.
I am more afraid of organizations that recieve 14 billion in expendature than I am of lets say 300 guys dressed up in black shirts trying to sound poetic. But thats just me.
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @08:21PM EST (#107)
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____Probably because I am smarter than you are.
If you were smart you would use sound reasoning and logic rather than insult to make your point.
____Stand up and take a bullet.
Yeah. Why don't you?
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @08:26PM EST (#110)
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Insults only make your argument weaker.
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"If you were smart you would use sound reasoning and logic rather than insult to make your point. "
Still waiting for you to demonstrate. Im not sure if you the same anon or another one, they all seem to be the same to me. I have given sound logic but tactics and strategy are not always logical they are more of a preferential enigma. But you knew that. I think this is a good run to utilize and I have decided to defend it and put a spin on it, you have decided to knock them and try to trash their movement because you don't like'fascism' (whatever that is) so we are at wits because of it.
I want to ask why are these guys going to this extreme? Your answer is because they are fascist. So I am to assume that fascism is about protesting in front of an ex-wifes house that won't let me see my kids. I have just presented logic and irony you choose which is which.
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Dan Lynch
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"Insults only make your argument weaker. "
Ya because frivolous sidelining comments makes yours so much stronger.
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @11:38PM EST (#125)
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____I want to ask why are these guys going to this extreme? Your answer is because they are fascist. So I am to assume that fascism is about protesting in front of an ex-wifes house that won't let me see my kids. I have just presented logic and irony you choose which is which.
You have not used logic. You have used "twisting words to make them mean what you want them to mean and to fit your agenda."
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @11:40PM EST (#126)
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____Ya because frivolous sidelining comments makes yours so much stronger.
My argument is as strong as it needs to be, which is why I do not repeat it in every single post, as you must do. You seem to believe that repetition will give your argument strength, that it can survive just by being seen. Not true. You have not made a good case that I should support the idiots known as the blackshirts. I will never support fascism.
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I don't see how it will hurt by embracing them. Drawing them into our group or finding out more about them.
Dan,
I do and have tried to explain it as best I could. I was convincing or I wasn't, but either way I have had my say.
I think you're a good guy, too and I wouldn't mind at all if my worries are groundless and you turn out to be right.
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"I think you're a good guy, too and I wouldn't mind at all if my worries are groundless and you turn out to be right."
Well all Im saying is, if they are a facist movement bent on world domination, wouldnt you rather have them closer to you and know exactly what they are all about? Thats how I have learned to work anyways. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Or you could look at it like Neitzche' and consider the entire world your enemy. The forces that be can work for you and it can work against you. And that goes for everything. JuJitsu artists know this. Just because it appears aweful in the beginning doesnt mean it can't be reversed and so on and so forth.
If you are waiting for the perfect movement or the perfect moment its never going to happen ever. You make the best of it and go on.
Show me a man who has never failed and I will show you a man who has never done anything. I want to take advantage of this Abbot guys work and make an example of him. If he's a fascist bigot I will make an example of that too. This guy isnt Hitler and he isnt Musolini. All we know is what the papers are telling us who are willing to paint him as such as soon as they can. If he starts talking about killing jews or blacks or whatever I will go down there and punch him out personally.
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Dan Lynch
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Five boys dressed in black and all of a sudden everyone in the men’s movement is fascist. God, right out of the fembot’s textbook. Are you a troll?
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @06:36PM EST (#81)
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____Five boys dressed in black and all of a sudden everyone in the men’s movement is fascist. God, right out of the fembot’s textbook. Are you a troll?
There's letslockandload's famous reservation of judgment again.
What a hypocrite!
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @06:55PM EST (#85)
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What a hypocrite!
Ya. if he is such a libertarian with anarchist leanings why is he all upset that no one except he and dan are falling in line behind these blackshirt idiots?
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Show me ONE single statement, anywhere on this board, of someone defending fascism.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @07:12PM EST (#93)
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Show me ONE single statement, anywhere on this board, of someone defending fascism.
Show my ONE single word in my post that said there was someone defending fascism.
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Then what is your problem?
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @07:26PM EST (#98)
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____Then what is your problem?
That you are only "reserving judgment" against the fascists and refuse to listen to anyone else's reasons for NOT supporting them. That you are upset because other people here have their own thoughts and their own ideas and you are upset because not everyone is falling in line behind the Blackshirts SS.
You and Dan can support them if you want. You will not force me to.
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I don’t support fascism, and I have said nothing in support of fascism. I don’t think it is write that because I don’t condemn someone else’s political thought that I should be associated with that person’s political thought.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @07:44PM EST (#102)
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____I don’t support fascism, and I have said nothing in support of fascism. I don’t think it is write that because I don’t condemn someone else’s political thought that I should be associated with that person’s political thought.
Did not say you supported fascism. You and dan both have come out in support of the Blackshirts, though, and both you have expressed anger and outrage because other people hear are not falling in line behind them.
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Well, you are wrong, show me one statement that says I support the balackshirts.
However, I do support direct action tactics. Direct action tactics are not violent tactics; they are ‘in your faces’ tactics. So I DO support the blackshirt’s tactics. If you think this makes me a fascist then you are wrong again.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @08:25PM EST (#109)
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____ Well, you are wrong, show me one statement that says I support the balackshirts.
You have stated over and over that everyone should "reserve judgment" of the blackshirts, yet judge anyone who disagrees with them.
____However, I do support direct action tactics.
I did not say I do not.
____Direct action tactics are not violent tactics; they are ‘in your faces’ tactics.
I did not say they were violent. I have made no mention of violence.
____So I DO support the blackshirt’s tactics. If you think this makes me a fascist then you are wrong again.
If you support the Blackshirts, you support fascism. They are fascists.
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I have stated my position. I have never said I support the blackshirts. Prove me wrong, Anon.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @11:35PM EST (#124)
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____I have stated my position. I have never said I support the blackshirts. Prove me wrong, Anon.
That is easy to do. If you did not support the blackshirts you would not be here arguing about it. You would allow other people to have their own opinions about it without mouthing off and calling people insulting names like a pissed off child. You have already stated you support their actions. Ergo, you support the blackshirts.
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You made the accusations, Anon. The burden of proof is on you. Show me your proof or go away, troll.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday July 28, @12:14AM EST (#130)
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____You made the accusations, Anon. The burden of proof is on you. Show me your proof or go away, troll.
No shite. YOU stated you supported their actions. That's your proof.
Do you assume everyone who disagrees with you is a troll, you flighty moron?
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by Anonymous User on Sunday July 28, @12:18AM EST (#131)
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____However, I do support direct action tactics. Direct action tactics are not violent tactics; they are ‘in your faces’ tactics. So I DO support the blackshirt’s tactics.
Here is your proof. Going to deny you said it or meant it now? Or are you going to cry like a little girl, troll?
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So I DO support the blackshirt’s tactics.
Please explain, oh mighty troll, how my statement proves your accusations are true.
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LL&L wrote:
Five boys dressed in black and all of a sudden everyone in the men’s movement is fascist. God, right out of the fembot’s textbook. Are you a troll?
Five boys dressed in black, calling themselves fascists and saying they're fighting for men and suddenly everyone is the men's movement is saying "Hey, these guys have the right idea! They know how to do it."
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<<Five boys dressed in black, calling themselves fascists and saying they're fighting for men and suddenly everyone is the men's movement is saying "Hey, these guys have the right idea! They know how to do it.">>
Ya, they have international attention there issues are out on the table they are quoted and they are publicly condemning the family court system and making people aware of whats going on.
And what are people focusing on? Fascism. Guess what, when I go down and protest in front of the courts of how I was wrongly convicted and not given a fair trial and that the accusor had a strong reason to lie among other things you know what they will say.
"Well he was convicted of sexual assault, so his word is no good" Despite that I had two witnesses testify for me the only two witnesses. Who happen to be present the whole time including when the accusor grabbed my crotch.
I never rallied behind them, I stood up for them and tried to gain some objectivety from it and to force a positive spin off it. As Australian authorities are condemning the men's movement in its entirety. This is when we should be putting the politicians on the defensive not going on the defensive ourselves. Worried about our little reputations. Our child molesting, raping, murdering, wife abusing reputations. Ya your right, I can now see the importance in that.
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @07:24PM EST (#97)
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____I never rallied behind them, I stood up for them and tried to gain some objectivety from it and to force a positive spin off it. As Australian authorities are condemning the men's movement in its entirety. This is when we should be putting the politicians on the defensive not going on the defensive ourselves. Worried about our little reputations. Our child molesting, raping, murdering, wife abusing reputations. Ya your right, I can now see the importance in that.
Noone said anything about reputations. I will not support fascism.
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"Noone said anything about reputations. I will not support fascism."
Do you support the men's movement?
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @08:22PM EST (#108)
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____Do you support the men's movement?
I support equal rights for men. Why do you want me to support fascism in order to support equal rights for men?
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"I support equal rights for men. Why do you want me to support fascism in order to support equal rights for men? "
Im simply pointing out that they are making efforts to talk about or protest for men's equality. So far I have yet to hear of them picketing or protesting for fascism. I have only heard of an offhand remark that Abbot has said about Fascism. If a guy is liberal and fights for the men's movement does that weaken his stance or his agenda because liberal is getting so much closer to socialism isnt it. And if anyone thinks that socialism is a fun party they should remember that the other half of Nazizm is Socializm.
If a man is black do we say well screw him hes out. IF thundercloud is native are we banning him or a white man like me because well Im white and my race has done nothing but horrible things since the dawn of time. Yet no one here has even talked to Abbot and know for sure what he's trying to say. We are going by the media and their selective editorials. If you wish to stay in the dark do so. Trusting the media is a major mistake, get the word straight from the horses mouth.
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @11:32PM EST (#123)
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____If a guy is liberal and fights for the men's movement does that weaken his stance or his agenda because liberal is getting so much closer to socialism isnt it. And if anyone thinks that socialism is a fun party they should remember that the other half of Nazizm is Socializm.
If that guy tries to make the men's movement about his liberal agenda? Yes, it weakens his stance. Blackshirts are trying to make a men's movement out of fascism.
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I support equal rights for men. Why do you want me to support fascism in order to support equal rights for men?
Answer the question please AU. Do you support the men's movement? It is a simple yes or no answer.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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The Blackshirts are a sign of our failure. Nothing good can come of them. The men's movement has failed to improve the conditions that create these men and it has failed to provide them with an alternative - potent, effective organizations and methods for changing the wrongs society inflicts on men.
I strongly disagree that the Blackshirts are a result of the failures of the men's movement. If anything, the Blackshirts are a sign of the failures and oppression of pheminism and socialism. They are an ominous example of the tyranny that will result of pheminism continues in its present path.
The men's movement is just starting to successfully get a footing. No movement is successful without its failures. Even the pheminist movement was around for 100’s of years before they got a firm footing. We are moving at a much faster rate then they ever did. For every great success there are literally 1000's of failures. Success does not come without a cost in the form of learning and training.
Men have only just recently begun to have the knowledge to be effective. For example, it has been only in the last few weeks that we've begun to see men acknowledge that there is institutional discrimination in the welfare system. A year ago that would have never made the news!
Nevertheless, even if the men's movement fails to make any significant achievements that does not in any way make the men's movement responsible. The fact of the matter is that the first cause that led to the formation of the Blackshirts is 100% related to the activities of pheminism, and yes there will be more of them if the pheminist don't back down.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday July 28, @12:27AM EST (#132)
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____Nevertheless, even if the men's movement fails to make any significant achievements that does not in any way make the men's movement responsible. The fact of the matter is that the first cause that led to the formation of the Blackshirts is 100% related to the activities of pheminism, and yes there will be more of them if the pheminist don't back down.
I would rather die than become a fascist. Fascism and feminism are exactly alike. The Blackshirts want to create a new feminism, except with men in control instead of women. They are fascists, and I will never fall in line with them like dan wants me to do.
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They are fascists, and I will never fall in line with them like dan wants me to do.
AU. That is not a fair characterization of Dan. Dan has never supported a fascist view or a group that preaches fascism. Further, his reserving judgment on the Blackshirt group doesn't make him a fascist.
Finally, the Blackshirts have done nothing illegal. However, when the police state called Australia could not have them arrested for peacefully protesting, they made a new law to get them arrested.
I suggest reading more about this group. If a nation is willing to pass laws to get a specific group arrested on the basis of their gender and ideology, the real question is who are the real fascists? Is it the Blackshirts, or is it the Nation of Australia that created a law to arrest a gender specific group that is peacefully protesting. Think about it. Hint. It damn well doesn't look good for Australia.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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I would rather die than become a fascist.
Well if you are a man then there is a pretty damn good chance that your wish will be granted. It'll be granted in one of several possible ways, the draft, having death occupation like mining, a false accusation that sends you to prison where you a killed or raped, the American police state causing depression and the subsequent suicide, or the American Pheminist Police State executing you in an act of gendercide in the name of protecting women.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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