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thx for posting this link
tried to access, registered and was offered a sample issue - March 2001
unfortunately the Adam Jones article was in the March 2002 issue, and I was unable to access it;
pity I was curious
thx anyway
Mike
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anyone having difficulty finding this article email me at Mensrights@attbi.com and I will forward you the article in pdf format. (if you want it in MS WORD let me know)
Tony
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by Anonymous User on Thursday July 18, @08:02PM EST (#3)
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The events that occurred in Rwanada are of no relevance to men's issues in the US and the rest of the civilized, Western world. Why? Because the issues we deal with assume a culture that has, at least to some extent, embraced Western philosophy and Western civilization. It is an insult to compare, by implication, a nation like the U.S., Britain, most of Europe, or Canada to Rwanda. The cultures and popular philosophies of Rwanda are so far removed from what we have here in Western nations that "men's issues" in Rwanda are irrelevant to anything we have here. The entire context is completely different.
Rwanda's issues involve population control, how to convince a (presumably) illiterate populace to abandon primative mysticism and collectivism in favor of reason and a Western philosophy, and how to establish the type of government that will promote the free market economy needed for Rwanda to get off the ground. The first step for Rwanda is population control and the adoption of reason. Men's issues in Rwanda are almost off the map compared to those problems.
As a proud American and proud member of Western Civilization, I'm insulted by the notion that Rwanda has anything in common with us in terms of fundamentals. It does not.
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I can understand your opinion but you are wrong in your assessment. The problems of men in one part of the world DO resonate with all men who are compassionate about human life. On a broader level the recognition of male problems in any part of the world is a segway into recognition of problems locally. The cliche saying is very appropriate here," THINK GLOBALLY, ACT LOCALLY!"
Tony
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The Rwandan civil violence in '94 is relevant to the men's movement because it serves as another example of society's tendency to ignore both male vulnerability and female culpability. The media reinforces it. Also, I'm not sure of how population control is important to improving life in Rwanda. It seems that political stability and government economic policies are much more important.
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The events that occurred in Rwanada are of no relevance to men's issues in the US and the rest of the civilized, Western world. Why? Because the issues we deal with assume a culture that has, at least to some extent, embraced Western philosophy and Western civilization.
I agree with AN on this one. I believe that men's issues in the 3rd world are important. But if we loose focus then we risk becoming too diluted in our efforts. The 3rd world will need to be left for another day after we win our own war and establish a significant level of influence in the men’s movement.
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Even if these cultures are not not similar to "western" philosophy in their beliefs. (which is irrelevent imo since men are men reguardless of their nationality or location in the world.) The reason this article is important is that it recognizes the bias in UN policy and aid agencies WORLD WIDE when helping men and boys.
The conclusion of the article sums this up very eloquently by stating.
"If males tend to be disproportionately targeted in genocide, then women tend to be disproportionately the survivors, and this opens up a host of important questions and subject areas in the fields of humanitarian intervention and international human rights policies. Feminist and human rights scholarship has done much to draw our attention to the gender-specific needs and concerns of women survivors, but it has standardly ignored or skated over the gendercides against males that produce such situations. Systematic attention to the male experience is clearly called for, and seems no less policy-relevant. Humanitarian interventions, for example, must supplement their attention to the special vulnerabilities of women and girls with recognition of the particular vulnerabilities
of men and boys."
One of the things we can learn from the feminist movement is that world wide recognition is absolutely necessary to help address issues locally. If people worldwide can start to recognize the problems of men in countries such Rwanda then perhaps they can see men as victims in other parts of the world. it is no coincidence that the we hear about the condition of women in places such as Afghanistan, India and Europe. If the problems of men are seen as a global issue the likelyhood that people will act on local issues increases geometrically.
Tony
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yes I agree - that's exactly why I am interested i it. Detecting the bias of the worldview of international observers and opinion makers is highly important to delouse the information signal.
Similar mechanics in distorting information directly relevant to North Americans are at play. This helps identify the phantoms that spread diseased memes like vectors into the population's mind.
thanks for drawing attention to it Tony.
Mike
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by Anonymous User on Friday July 19, @09:58AM EST (#10)
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I like the colorful vernacular and syntax you use to illucidate the significant relevancy of your message.
I'M A TECHEE' TOO
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hey, what can I say - I've got a fucked brain and it just takes over my g-dmn fingers and spews shit out that I dont even make sense of myself
I musta been corked on corn mash, or sniffing glue or something
sorry to mess up the screen with crapola
Mike
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sorry to mess up...
Mike,
Don't sell yourself short. Realizing we're dealing with memes is a great insight. I wish I'd thought of it. :) Is there anything practical in meme theory about blocking a bad one?
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If people worldwide can start to recognize the problems of men in countries such Rwanda then perhaps they can see men as victims in other parts of the world. it is no coincidence that the we hear about the condition of women in places such as Afghanistan, India and Europe.
Radical feminism didn't just start bringing these issues to the limelight overnight. It took them over 40 years to setup the global influence and network necessary to expose the feminist side of the equation. Likewise, men will need to setup a similar network before we can have the same level of influence. Until that network exists, we are only diluting our efforts. The dilution will only result in our voices not being heard. Focus people. Focus...focus....focus...and incrementalism….incrementalism….incrementalism. That is how we will win the war against men.
What to loose the war? Division of efforts…wide spread focus…..attempts at rapid and sudden change….lack of cohesion on issues…..lack of good marketing…..failure to build name recognition…….Those are the mechanisms and the hallmarks of certain failure. We are in a very political game. Want to win? Play by the rules.
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Tony wrote:
One of the things we can learn from the feminist movement is that world wide recognition is absolutely necessary to help address issues locally.
Have we learned that, or is it just something they tell us and hope is true? It's a theory NOW is desperately clinging to right now. "How can young American women think they have a fair shake when African girls are undergoing forced genital mutilation?!!!"
If the problems of men are seen as a global issue the likelihood that people will act on local issues increases geometrically.
I doubt that very seriously. All politics is local. It was my own (relatively minor) problems and those of the men and women around me that got me into the men's movement. As much as I have sympathy for all the poor bastards getting slaughtered in other parts of the world, I do not share in their suffering or the injustices done to them. I can't do anything about it personally and I haven't a clue what my government could do. Their victimization is not my victimization and it would be self-serving nonsense for me to lay any claim to it.
I know that's not what you're doing, Tony, but it has to be made clear. I understand your point to be that this is an example of Western media applying a feminacentric lens to Third World events, thereby a) horribly distorting the truth of the situation, and b) showing the pervasiveness of that bias in all areas of Western media.
Good, valid and important points. Let's keep it clear, though, that we are not claiming their suffering as our own. Injustice to them does not prove injustice to us.
Heck! I, myself, have very little claim to vicimhood other than having to put up with obnoxious smugness from women all my life and relationships that didn't work because of screwy ideas about men and women.
I'm not a victim, but I can see the writing on the wall. Increasing injustice and exploitation of men simply because they are men. My goal to make sure that neither I nor those I care about get flattened by this steamroller. My politics are local.
That's where the support will come from - those who realize "This could happen to me. This could happen to my father/husband/lover/son/co-worker/friend."
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"That's where the support will come from - those who realize "This could happen to me. This could happen to my father/husband/lover/son/co-worker/friend."
exactly my friend, exactly.
Tony
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I wrote:
...but it has to be made clear...
...Let's keep it clear, though,...
Ohmigod! I'm channeling Richard Nixon!
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I think it's important to know what men are up against in countries throughout the world, especially developing countries. Feminists are quick to point to developing countries and Islamic societies as places where women suffer abuse and discrimination. But men also suffer in countries like Afghanistan, Bosnia, Rwanda, and Iraq. Conscription, ethnic and religious violence, brutality and the risks associated with dangerous jobs affect men in developing countries, particularly those experiencing political turmoil and civil war. Also, the same gender-related injustices impacting males in the US burden males in such countries as Canada, England, Australia, and New Zealand.
Always try to stay informed about the ways in which men are vulnerable in other countries. Don't allow feminists to dismiss male sacrifice and hardship.
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My goal to make sure that neither I nor those I care about get flattened by this steamroller. My politics are local.
Not in my backyard. Not on my watch. I'm kinda protective that way.
I think there's a potentially powerful approach here. Framing protection as the responsibility of policymakers.
Senator, how do you propose to protect men and children from paternity fraud?
Congressman, how do you plan to protect fathers from being separated from their children.
Judge, how would you protect innocent men from false accusations of abuse?
Work to keep repeating the question and framing the issue in those terms.
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One of the reasons that male abuses world wide are important is that the reasons that men in countries such as Afghanistian, Rwanda, Iraq, Iran are being abused are theoretically the same reasons that men in "western" countries are being abused. The lack of power (contrary to what feminist theory states) is a major factor. Men are required to act a particular way through social control and legal control. The reasons atrocities against men in one country are ignored are the same reasons they are ignored in the U.S., male suffering is seen as the status quo.
One of key factors that pushed me to look into men's rights was the fact that the women's movement and theories fail to address any male issues on any level.
Tony
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