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"Former Home Office Minister Ann Widdecombe said judges should have discretion to name women if they believed charges were groundless.
"'And if there is any question at all in this particular case that the complainant has committed perjury, then the full rigour of the law should be applied.'"
You go girl!!!
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I think I know what this is all about, girl gets caught cheating on her boyfriend crys rape, its freaking routine.
But here's the part or quote I think is bullshit.
"Hann's solicitor Ugo Palazzo said celebrities were exposed to a greater risk of false allegations than ordinary members of the public, and the consequences were far more damaging regardless of the final outcome. "
You don't have to be famous to have your life competely ruined, and it doesnt happen anymore to just the famous than anyone else. Like only famous people pick up chicks at bars? Come on. Hell; look at the "mother" crys rape first thing while her kids were sufficating , vomitting and dehydrating in a greenhouse with a motor. Funny, Im not sure I read the article right, but it looks like the cops drove her around looking for her assialiants right off. I just wonder when and if they ever got around to calling an ambulance.
Look at Jamie Nelson, he's filed a lawsuit, but he spent three years in jail because his ex-wife's friend cried rape the night before their custody battle. He was not even in the city at the time. Her word stood alone as the sole convicting principle. Three years. And all she had to do was 'say so'.
False accusations of this type of thing are a dime a dozen.
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Dan Lynch
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This link leads to a "Talking Point" Forum on the BBC news website where you can air your views on this subject in this exact case.
The rationale of the first poster is interesting. "Vick, UK" (Vicky?) claims that naming anyone accused of rape and if possible showing a photo may help other "victims" to come forward.
The mind boggles that any sane person should think that just because a woman has made an acusation, that we should automatically agree and vigorously attempt to find more "victims". The fact that the accused has rights and may in fact be entirely innocent is not a factor when it come to "protecting" women.
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A friend of mine was charged with sexual assault. Right after that another one came forward, both in the same area. The second didnt come forward until she saw the other charge had been laid.
What it boiled down to was a consentual affair, that she decided because the other woman had claimed it was sexual assault, she felt she must have been assaulted too. More like at the "guidance" of the sexual assault centre that is. The incidents were 10 years apart, talk about rediculous. It was subsequently dropped.
Currently there is no standard for what really consists of a "sexual assault" in Canadian law.
Its not about seeking justice half the time its about seeking revenge. Broken hearts don't seem to care if people spend the rest of their natural lives in jail. Often morality and justice don't collide in the same sentence.
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Dan Lynch
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You sir, are correct in your statements.
Email me sometime, Dan. I live in Ontario as well.
Women aren't better than men.
Men aren't better than women.
We're just different. Deal.
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I need an emial address John. Don't worry about posting your's unless you want to, but feel free to email me. Mine is dan047@sympatico.ca thanks.
Dan Lynch
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I'm in Ontario as well and I'm already in contact with Dan.
Brought to you by the sham mirrors.
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I know buddy.
It's getting bigger all the time.
Dan Lynch
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Im not sure how many have heard of this one story, but its got some interesting unknowns in it that make big media noise.
http://www.nandotimes.com/world/story/453497p-3631 636c.html
Something appears to have happened and whatever it was seems to be treated as a crime by the Pakistani authorities. Saying a "tribal council" ordered it makes it sound like it was a legitimate group that is accused of doing this.
The other story on this (all the mentions seem to be worded about the same as one of these two) is here:
http://in.news.yahoo.com/020702/6/1r4wo.html
In this story the rape victim mentions that her 11 year old brother was also raped (previously) and that "The Panchayat had threatened that all women in the accused's family would be raped unless the 18-year-old submitted herself to the public gang rape."
What I'm not seeing here is exactly what constitutes the "rape". The implication is that it was symbolic rather than an actual violent attack (images of 4 guys holding down a struggling teenage girl would appear to be inaccurate on the basis of the victims account in this story).
For example it might be the equivalent of a woman in the US submitting to a strip search "voluntarily" (which she has no choice over in practical terms).
At any rate the "rape" and the fact that the woman claims she was made to appear naked in public seem to be having the effect of taking her "good name" as it were, which is what is claimed happened to the other girl.
-------------------------------------------
That the incident is pushed as an example of anti-woman treatment while the rape of the younger boy is ignored also seems very suspicious.
<<"The increasing incidents of terrible atrocities against women are a terrible reflection on the state of society and the status of women within it," commission chairman Afrasiab Khattak said in a statement.>>
But it seems that in reality the women have a higher status because (1) of the two 11/12 year olds found together only the girl was considered a victim. Only the girl had a status to lose. (2) both a girl and a boy were victimised but only one was reported in most stories despite the boy being 11 and the girl being an adult of 18. The male victim is invisible. The incident is arbitrarily labeled as anti-woman.
Why is that?
Are we supposed to believe that this female bias is Pakistani? Or is it a bias enforced by western media?
<<Her case prompted demonstrations and protests by hundreds of civil and women's rights groups nationwide.>>
His case prompted nothing...?
The term "gang-rape" also seems misleading since the 4 men are not supposed to have ever simultaneously assaulted the woman.
http://iafrica.com/news/worldnews/991412.htm
<<District police chief Malik Saeed Awan said authorities were informed of the publicly-ordered gang-rape several days after the incident.
He said four men took turns to sexually assault the girl inside a room.>>
-------------------------------------------
Seems to be some confusion in the accounts over whether her brother was 11 or 12. Also whether she had to walk naked past a few dozen or "a thousand" people. Anyway there's been no time for the authorities to investigate what really happened yet.
Dan Lynch
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Someone else wrote the informatin on that, I forgot to post it.
Dan Lynch
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Here is my analysis of the article.
'The Feminazi Media: Knock out the signal'
This is something that has caught my attention. To me it looks like a fine piece of propaganda. But let's look at the elements of the equation. Remember Editors have to sell papers and propaganda is a homeland to political ajudicators. Western/Feminazi Media
OUTRAGE: THIS 18-YEAR-OLD GIRL WAS ORDERED TO BE GANG-RAPED TO SHAME HER FAMILY
the original (http://www.nandotimes.com/world/story/453497p-363 1636c.html)
By KHALID TANVEER
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
HORRENDOUS INJUSTICE
<<July 4, 2002 -- MEERWALA, Pakistan - For two nervous hours, the teenage girl
worried for her 11-year-old brother as their father pleaded before a
Pakistani tribal council that the boy had done no wrong in walking
unchaperoned with a girl from a different tribe.
The council was unconvinced and ordered a brutal punishment: The boy's
sister would be gang-raped to shame her whole family.>>
Dan: The pecking order of tribes or classses in Pakistan is of paramount issue, sexism is not of high importance. Notice how they put the personal touch issue on this with the "nervous, teenage girl". It appears as a first hand account, but no first hand witness is mentioned.
<<Shortly afterward, four members of the council took turns raping the
18-year-old sister in a mud hut as hundreds of people stood outside,
laughing and cheering. >>
Dan: They don't define what is rape is, and they don't give a witnesses account of anyone seeing it or saying they saw what happened, apparently they were to busy cheering.
<<"I touched their feet. I wept. I cried," the young woman told The Associated
Press yesterday. "I said I taught the holy Koran to children in the village,
therefore don't punish me for a crime which was not committed by me. But
they tore my clothes and raped me one by one.">>
Dan: Was this translated? What language is the original in?
<<As she spoke, her mother, Allah Bachai, sat beside her at their home in
Meerwala village in southern Punjab province, wailing.>>
Dan: More personall interjection to evoke sympathy. Still no evidence of first hand account.
<<Senior police and provincial government officials visited Meerwala yesterday.
Asef Hayyat, Punjab's deputy inspector general of police, said the top
officer at the local police station had been suspended, and several close
relatives of the suspects were detained to pressure the perpetrators into
surrendering.
"We will soon arrest the real culprits," Hayyat told reporters.>>
Dan: Is there a Direct connection With the Police and the incident. What do they mean by surrendering, just exactly? Could that mean they can't get warrents, and are hoping these Tribe Council men will walk in on their own? Literally thats what it could mean.
<<Pakistan has a tradition of tribal justice in which crimes or affronts to
dignity are punished outside the framework of Pakistani law. The Human
Rights Commission of Pakistan has demanded an end to punishments by tribal
councils>>
Dan: This is where we start to get into the meat of the article, and it is in fact the only factual piece of the article that there is. Keep this part in mind notice the demand to end the punishment by tribal councils, really they could be saying the 'abolishment of tribal council, which would put all this power into the hands of 'the human rights commission'. I am suggesting that this is far from a coincidence that this is in the article.
<<The June 22 rape has outraged rights groups, who say the number of
atrocities against women in Pakistan is increasing. And Pakistan's Supreme
Court yesterday directed top Punjab police and government officials to
attend a special hearing tomorrow on the case.>>
Dan: Really, well thats great, except one thing, that this article doesnt mention, in its mission to stop atrocities against women, is, the 11 year old boy was apparently raped aswell. It must have slipt their mind. But they don't want to evoke sympathy for males now do they in the FemiNazi press. But here is other articles the first one mentions the boy being raped.
http://in.news.yahoo.com/020702/6/1r4wo.html
http://iafrica.com/news/worldnews/991412.htm
<<As cited by Pakistan's government-run news agency, Chief Justice Sheikh Riaz
Ahmad described the case as a violation of human rights.
Rana Ijaz, the Punjab government's law minister, was among officials who
visited the village, and promised a full investigation and assistance to the
victim's family.
"This is a very sad and shocking incident," Ijaz told reporters.
Villagers told him the rape was the second in the region recently. A week
earlier, a girl in a nearby village committed suicide after being raped by
two tribesmen, villagers said. Police said yesterday that two men had been
arrested in that case.>>
Dan: The details are sketchy at best, still no mention of the boy, even when they brought up another girl (and the informatin about the boy was readily availible , especially if they were first hand witnesses). And they don't say if the men who were arrested were the same 'tribesmen' or not, that only two men were arrested in that case. What that means is, they could have arrested two completely different guys not related to the tribes council, but purposely put that in to furthur demonize the council. Sure the numbers add up, but I suspect if you checked it out that that would be the case. Still the definition of Rape is yet to be laid out on the table. For example was she 'strip searched' was it a mock rape, what is the situation? Now remember the pecking order in Pakistan, its all about humiliation more than it is about sex. The humiliation itself could drive this woman to suicide, which means, she was spit on and pointed out by other villagers as the custom of the area is.
<<In the June 22 rape, the Mastoi tribe demanded punishment after the
teenager's brother was seen walking unchaperoned with a Mastoi girl in a
deserted part of the village. The brother and sister are from the Gujar
tribe, which is considered to be lower-class.>>
Dan: Here's where the 'classism' comes into effect, but quite downplayed in this article( for a purpose I surely believe).
<<The Mastoi tribe called a meeting of the tribal council. The boy's father,
Ghulam Farid, 54, said he pleaded for clemency, telling the council the
Mastoi girl was safe with his son because he was too young to have sex.
"I told the tribal jury that my son is ready to marry [the girl], if they
think she had been molested," Farid said. "But Mastoi tribesmen rejected
this proposal, saying how could they give their daughter to me, a low-caste
tribal. >>
Dan: The classism comes in hard with the quotes, now this is important because the circumstantial evidence doesnt fit. I find it very unusual that 4 muslims would have anyform of intercourse with a defiled or 'lower class' girl. This is highly suspect in my opinion.
<<"I begged them . . . My daughter is a very pious girl. I reminded them, 'She
has been teaching holy Koran to your children. You are fully aware of her
character.' "
But the Mastoi girl's father rejected the pleas and demanded the gang-rape
as punishment, Farid said. Among the men on the tribal council was Mohammed
Ramzan, the Mastoi girl's uncle, he said.
"Nobody supported me. There was no one to protect my daughter," Farid said. >>
Dan: I still want a translation on this, and what it means, does it mean he had no lawyer? We still really don't know what he was protecting her from, as the definition of 'rape' seems to be broadening as we speak.
Whats going on here is the Human Rights Commision is trying to dismantle the Tribal Council, in other articles it jumps from rape to sexual assault and back again, with no one making a definite of what even happened. What is shown is the girl was walked around naked in front of some people.
Just because it says 'Human Rights Commision' on the office door doesnt mean shit. Just like Feminists have said 'feminism is about equality' don't let them fool you. What I'm really trying to say here, is how easy it is to use Rape as a propaganda tool to gain power. We already know that the Human Rights Commision want to dismantle this trible council, and with the editorial slant it leads us to favour the 'human rights commision'.
The numbers don't add up at all. We know nothing more about this incident that when we began reading it. It evokes all kinds of emotion in our hearts, and especially women's. To the point where no one will stop and ask for the pertinent details of the incident. This is a WitchHunt on an international level. The FemiNazi press have purposely downplayed or deletted that the boy too was 'raped' (whatever that is). This slam will work in great favour for the west to take away power from the tribesmen, and ultimately place the power in someone else's hands namely the Human Rights Commision. What our problem here as men's activists is, this type of thing 'blanket demonizes men' period. It doesnt matter where it happens but ultimately it pits the blame on us. I am out right suggesting that this type of thing has been going on for years, and it has been going on right under our noses and in our own countries.
If we're not careful all our right will be gone taken away with this same kind of propaganda, including women's. Like I said, just because they sign says "Human Rights Commision' check and see just whose human rights they are talking about. Hell; look at the CAS (children's aids society) or the american version what is it CWS? (Children's Welfare Society?), they are a ruthless and unmonitored agency that has almost unlimited power to take your children, and that's in the free world.
Always double , triple and quadruple check everything that comes out of a Feminist's yap.
........The Editorial Slant by.
Dan Lynch
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I'm beginning to wonder if feminists are deliberately dragging the names of famous men through the mud, as if to say, "Even the best of you are rapist pigs...consider the average Joe."
And if the woman felt guilty @ cheating, she wouldn't have straddled the guy naked!! It came across to me as "I feel horny, baby...let's get some action...oops, you stuck that rotten penis in me...RAAAAAPE! I only wanted oral, and THEN I wouldn't feel I was cheating!!"
Learning to Adjust.
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Unfortunately, you are probably spot on, LadyRivka.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday July 04, @09:47AM EST (#11)
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The BBC is holding a Web talkback forum on this issue. If you would like to contribute, here is the URL:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/new sid_2088000/2088651.stm
There'a slso a discvussion about anonymity and sperm donation:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/new sid_1991000/1991965.stm
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I'm not sure on this issue. One of the problems I have with pressing charges against false accusors, is that in many cases it would prevent them from confessing to having made a false accusation, should they have a resurgence of ethical thought in the aftermath of what they have done.
I really see it as a big problem.
However, I would submit, that if false claims are discovered without an admission or without cooperation from the accuser, then criminal charges should definitely be pressed.
If the woman volunteers that she had lied after some amount of time; well, that's a much more difficult proposition.
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Aleph_Null: I'm not sure on this issue. One of the problems I have with pressing charges against false accusors, is that in many cases it would prevent them from confessing to having made a false accusation, should they have a resurgence of ethical thought in the aftermath of what they have done.
IMX, ethical thought doesn't just come and go. What you seem to me to be describing is someone who found it advantageous to lie deciding that saying something else is more advantageous, in this case it just happens to be the truth. It is the moral thinking of a child, not that of a responsible adult.
You seem to me to be thinking of women as irresponsible children and perhaps advocating treating them as such.
If the woman volunteers that she had lied after some amount of time; well, that's a much more difficult proposition.
We could give her a lollipop, pat her on the head and say "Good girl!"
Or we could call it what it is - a confession and an admission of guilt. We all gotta grow up sometime.
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One of the problems I have with pressing charges against false accusors, is that in many cases it would prevent them from confessing to having made a false accusation
Actually, once charges are brought, an admission of guilt often results in a reduced sentence compared to what one would receive if one pleaded not-guilty and was then convicted. If she's charged and is ready to admit guilt, she can plea bargain.
The logic that you use could be applied to any crime -- Why charge people with crimes, if the threat of punishment may keep them from confessing?
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Its possible that the original intent of this line thread, was to leave a back door policy open for the person.
But deterrance is half the fun of it. Without that deterrence it just keeps happening and like we have today at epidemic proportions.
The reason no one punishes those fuking bitches is because 'politically' they are cowards. AS of now all accusations are supposed to be believed. "Why would a woman lie about Rape?" Well we know a woman would lie about being raped to get out of being pitched for 'negligently murdering her children'. I have a few more instances and of a far lesser reason, too.
The Rape issue is one of the most biggest political shames of our era. It has the lowest occurancy rate of almost any crime, and yet it is the most publicized, we really have to start asking ourselves why.
.
Dan Lynch
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The following provisions of the Magna Carta apply to the use of false accusations and due process and the refusal of law enforcement and the courts with regard to following the provisions of the same with regard to false accuasations against males is a violation of the same:
Clause 38. Henceforth no baliff shall put anyone on trial by his own unsupported allegation, without bringing credible witnesses to the charge.
Clause 39. No free man shall be taken or imprisoned or disseised or outlawed or exiled or in any way ruined, nor will we go or send against him, except by the lawful judgement of his peers or the law of the land.
Clause 40. To no one will we sell, to no one will we deny or delay right or justice.
I am a member of the Somerset Chapter Magna Charta Barons
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