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I think we should contact this guy and give him a peice of our "reasoning".
Dan Lynch
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By Cheryl Wetzstein
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Dan, Him's a her and the conclusions reached in the report she quotes sound unbelievably shallow. The headline is much more general than the report on young men only - shame on Washington Times and, Rutgers should be ashamed for sponsoring such crap. Guys are getting enough sex so they aren't interested in marriage. Golly Dr. researcher, that's deep.
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Guys are getting enough sex so they aren't interested in marriage. Golly Dr. researcher, that's deep.
Actually, they cite a number of reasons that men are shying away from marriage, in addition to an active, unmarried sex life. These reasons include: "a social climate that doesn't push them to marry," as well as "worries that they will marry the wrong person, be forced to make too many compromises or take on too many burdens as a husband, or suffer huge losses if the marriage ends in divorce."
They also point out that men aren't dealing with the same, internal biological clock as women.
However, ABlevr, we should definitely be concerned about any insinuation that men only marry for sex, a belief that trivializes men's love and devotion.
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Thomas revealed:
However, ABlevr, we should definitely be concerned about any insinuation that men only marry for sex, a belief
that trivializes men's love and devotion.
Quite. It also insults their intelligence: marriage gives men no right to sex under current law. She can lock the gate as soon as vows are
exchanged and there's nil he can do about it, legally.
It's a wonder the authors (yes, one IS male) didn't think that if men are concerned about the consequences of marriage and have to be "pressed" into it by society, maybe marriage isn't in their interests and their refraining from it is a reasonable and rational choice.
cheers,
sd
Those who like this sort of thing
will find this the sort of thing they like.
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Geez! I saw on DOprah the other day they were worried that women are being pushed into marriage and haveing children again. According to them it was "right wing conspiracy". So if we marry them its our fault, if we dont marry them its our fault.
You know what, if anyone does marry one of these skitzoides they deserve to lose their house.
I just love these constant Editorial Slants. Its real easy to blame someone when they are not their to defend themselves. is Men's voice in the media.
I am seeing stories where guys are now losing their houses just for dating chicks. They bang them one night she pulls some freak act the cops get called he's whisked off, she has a brand new house in her name. Ya bill 117 protects all of us doesnt it.
I love chicks, but the law is out of control, and that law is being abused, if they can do it they will.
Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Sunday June 30, @10:02PM EST (#64)
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From the Smartmarriages web page, thought you might like this:
http://archives.his.com/smartmarriages/msg01996.ht ml
from: Smart Marriages
Diane-
I've read your correspondence for over a year now. Every once
in a while you pass on an article that I just can't help responding
to. I understand that these articles do not necessarily reflect your
opinions. Feel free to publish my response.
I find the McManus article, "Why men drag their feet" to be full
of misleading half truths. I am in the final process of a divorce, and
I can tell you, my eyes are wide open now. I hope someday that
I will have the courage to remarry after the trauma I've endured
for the past year and a half.
The point: I think men are becoming more and more afraid to marry,
and after my recent experience with marriage I understand why.
Divorce is so widespread in our society that everyone is touched
by it. You are either a child of or party to divorce yourself or
you have family or friends who are victim to it.
If you are a young male in our "modern" society the odds are that
you do not have the emotional skills to even know that you're afraid,
nor do you have the awareness, courage, and listening skills to
be a good partner to a typically more emotionally advanced female.
We do not teach men these skills, never have, and probably never
will. In our society we test our men "in the fire" of marriage. No
one should be surprised that the fall-out rate is so high. Furthermore,
the consequences of failure are very negative and traumatic. No one
wants to fail, no one wants to be in pain or cause someone else
pain- those are sources of great fear. Ironically, I believe these same
fears cause men who are in marriage to stay emontionally recluse.
This is poisonous, and you guessed it, leads to more divorce.
To say that men cohabit rather than commit because they are lazy,
want free sex, want economies of scale for living expenses, and
that women are fools is shallow and repulsive. Men are afraid
to marry because they don't see the intangible benefits. Maybe the
sex IS better when you're married... Maybe you CAN grow more
and faster when you're married. But getting to that place takes
a great deal of patient work, and it strains men and women alike.
Steve Dunbar in Colorado
Which is why we've created the coalition - to get courses out there that
show people they can improve their odds and to help them learn the behaviors
and practices that will turn them into Masters of Marriage. The Gottman
opening keynote will address much of this - how to teach men and women how
to *do* relationships and marriage in ways that will reverse these many
decades of failure, hopelessness, fear and loathing. - diane
**************************
Copyright © 2001 CMFCE. All rights reserved. See below.
To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE, or change your address,
visit http://www.smartmarriages.com Click Newsletter. Enter your
address in the appropriate box and proceed.
This is a moderated list. If you reply, your response is sent only to Diane
Sollee, editor, not to the other subscribers. Please indicate if your
response is NOT to be shared with the list.
This newslist shares information on marriage, divorce and educational
approaches. Opinions expressed are not necessarily shared by members of the
Coalition.
Newsletter archive - to read ALL posts to the newsletter:
http://archives.his.com/smartmarriages/index.html# start
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Let me see; If I were to get married I could wind up getting divorced in less than a year and surrendering half of what I have worked fifty years to gain, custody of children, property that has been in my family for generations, and have a lein placed on the next twenty years of my earnings, for a child which may not even be mine, and even if that fact is known may not matter.
OR -
I can stay single, keep what is mine, and have some woman eager to please me and give me all they sex I want in hope I will marry her, and be secure in my vasectomy that if she turns up pregnant, I can pass the DNA test.
Hmmmmmm.
Sounds like a no-brainer to me, and it sounds like other men are learning it younger and younger.
Notice how this study and article are all geared for "the impact it has on women." Hmph. Never mind how anti-male, feminist spawned hate laws has produced bitter fruit. Yeah, your biological clock is YOUR problem lady. Want sympathy? May I suggest the latest Webster's, somewhere between "shit" and "syphilis." HAW-HAW!!!!!!!!!!! I am so very amused.
Just say no to women's crap, and when they come hat in hand, have your pre-nups ready. And if one won't sign, the next one will. They outnumber us, comrades, and I will let you in on a clue:
When demand outstrips supply, it's a seller's market. :-D
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I live near enough to Rutgers for a face-to-face visit. Anyone want to join me?
Frank
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I live near enough to Rutgers for a face-to-face visit. Anyone want to join me?
This actually may be a very good idea. How close is Rutgers to NYC?
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A short train ride from Penn Station to New Brusnwick station. Then take a local bus to the building his office is in. (not sure yet which one it is.) NJ Transit'll cost you about 9 bucks round trip.
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Please contact me at mensrights01@yahoo.com. I'd like to discuss this with you. Note that I'll be in the NYC area in late-September. They'll probably be conducting their studies on this for a while. In fact, if I know anything about the way academia works, they're using this initial study to buck for long-term research funding.
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contact me as well at mark_carden@hotmail.com. I'll be in New York from early July through at least September
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Let me see; If I were to get married I could wind up getting divorced in less than a year and surrendering half of what I have worked fifty years to gain, custody of children, property that has been in my family for generations, and have a lein placed on the next twenty years of my earnings, for a child which may not even be mine, and even if that fact is known may not matter.
OR -
I can stay single, keep what is mine, and have some woman eager to please me and give me all they sex I want in hope I will marry her, and be secure in my vasectomy that if she turns up pregnant, I can pass the DNA test.
Because of legal imbalances (read "extreme discrimination against men") such as Ontario's bill 117 and US VAWA as well as anti-father prejudice in the family courts, marriage is a very different thing for a man than it is for a woman.
If the marriage doesn't work out, the woman will probably get a good settlement including the house, custody of the children, alimony, and often excessive child support that she can spend on herself. The man on the other hand will probably lose his home and his children as well as a great deal of his savings and future income. In most cases, if he finds out that he is not the biological father of one or more of the children, it's just too bad for him.
Even if the marriage doesn't dissolve, there is no balance of power, since the woman can, on as little as a whim, have the man arrested for domestic violence. In many cases, she need only claim that she feels threatened. In addition, if the woman beats the man, the man has precious few options, certainly far fewer than a woman in his position. One of the men interviewed for the report stated that and ex-wife can "take you for all you've got." Perhaps this should be reworded to "a wife (current or ex-) can take you for all you've got." Men who don't realize this today are foolish, ignorant or both.
Marriage has been perverted. Because of discrimination written into case and legislated law, marriage may be romantic for women, but it is a very dangerous endeavor for a man. It's good that men (and even some good women) are waking up to these facts. (Check out the info from the recent NCFM forum for some details.)
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Thomas wisely engraved:
Even if the marriage doesn't dissolve, there is no balance of power, since the woman can, on as little as a whim,
have the man arrested for domestic violence.
Manipulating both the law and culture to make men subordinate in their personal relationsips with women is a major theme of feminism. It is probably the aspect of feminism which appeals most to the average Jane.
Mostly women never have to file a DV report or a writ for sole custody in the Family Court; they just hint and intelligent men quickly realize where the power lies.
Perhaps this should be reworded to "a wife (current or ex-) can take you for all you've got."
She has it already. She just needs to collect.
Men who
don't realize this today are foolish, ignorant or both.
Don't be too harsh on young men. It's not as though our culture teaches them this willingly; instead it accuses them of a fictitious mental condition: committment phobia.
cheers,
sd
Those who like this sort of thing
will find this the sort of thing they like.
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""Manipulating both the law and culture to make men subordinate in their personal relationsips with women is a major theme of feminism. It is probably the aspect of feminism which appeals most to the average Jane.""
Yes, just another way of getting her big brother to beat you up.
""Don't be too harsh on young men. It's not as though our culture teaches them this willingly; instead it accuses them of a fictitious mental condition: committment phobia. ""
Again very right on accurate. Who will save these poor bastards. Always finding out when its to late.
Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @01:11AM EST (#67)
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Yeah, How many times have we all heared women use the tired stereotype; "Men are afraid of commitment"
Well, gee, ladies, 'Can't imagine WHY!!!
Thundercloud.
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I want the "pill " for men soooon!!!
Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Friday June 28, @02:20PM EST (#54)
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Dan, you're not fully informed. Do some reasearch and consider the source of this article. They are really right-wingers, these Marriage Project people--take a look at their homepage at Rutgers--they blame both men and women for not adhering to their agenda, marriage. I'm female, divorced, and I lost everything I mean EVERYTHING in the divorce. He3 took me to the cleaners big-time, so it happens to women, too, gentlemen. Trust me, any female with the sensory acuity of a peanut should know that marriage isn't worth the risk for either men or women. Rather, those of us who want a child--men and women--need to get together and plan to co-parent. The rest of us--I don't want any kids--have no reason to marry and we really don't need to. I don't believe that men "need" women or that women "need" men. People who want a relationship can have one; others who just want sex should pair up that way, too. There will always be a few nuts who want to get married, male and female, good for them, but this female sees no reason to do it again, either. It's not a male or female issue, it's a right-wing issue. They are control freaks. There is nothing to gain from a marriage.
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" It's not a male or female issue, it's a right-wing issue. They are control freaks. There is nothing to gain from a marriage."
Spare me the retehrect I know the right wing agenda.
Funny it was still a liberal paper and the paper quoted that it was the men's fault, just like in Australia. For those who dont go to the web site, the article puts it on men.
I believe children need both parents marriage is probably a good idea on it.
As for the Democrates, well REVERSE DISCRIMINATION is still just discrimination isnt it. 90% of the problem between the sexes and the races is their fault.
If I am anything I will go with Libertarian with a little l, I dont need government telling what to do. And I dont need the liberals lying to me to enforce socialism on my back. They have been lying about data for so long the truth is now a late breaking story which they forgot they were trying to cover up.
Its articles like that that create hostility. Pure and simple.
Sorry your marriage sucked.
.
Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Friday June 28, @05:00PM EST (#57)
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Easy there Dan--no need to get upset. I don't give a rat's about the rhetoric, either. I was just making a point about the source of the study--and by the way, a very conservative newspaper, the Washington Times, quoted the same information from the same study. As far as the Democrats are concerned, who said anything about politics? I'm not politically affiliated and I don't intend to be, either. Neither the Democrats or the Republicans caused the rift between men and women--it's an outgrowth of social conventions that don't work anymore. I'm not into socialism, either. In fact, I think I could justify my position as at least a little bit Libertarian. The fact remains that the last study--the study released last year from Rutgers--cited a number of criticisms about the attitude women bring to marriage and relationships. Certainly, this story about men was hyped unjustly big time, no doubt about it. That doesn't make the hype appropriate, touche'. But if you read more of the literature, if you are really willing to go to some depth into this subject, you'll find that women are criticized too. And both men and women are going to be criticized by the marriage-mongers until they finally realize that, for the most part, with the possible exception of raising kids, there is no real reason to marry for either men or women. The marriage mongers will use ANY agenda, ANY article, ANY bleeping study to justify their contention. And that just makes it much more difficult for intelligent men and women to decide what type of relationship, if any, is appropriate for them and to pursue that relationship, whatever it may be.
Thanks for the comment on the marriage. It was a blessing in disguise. It taught me not to ask for fairytale relationships with men. And I'm glad I don't buy the tyranny of marriage, either. If more men and women would give up on the fairytale romance concept of relationships, we'd all be freer to mutually pursue what we want.
Or just be single. Whatever.
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" The marriage mongers will use ANY agenda, ANY article, ANY bleeping study to justify their contention. And that just makes it much more difficult for intelligent men and women to decide what type of relationship, if any, is appropriate for them and to pursue that relationship, whatever it may be. "
Its just the same thing, "the male hate mongers"
will use any study any half of any study or just make shit up, and there is more of that than there is of the marriage mongers of late.
Anyways, even if we go further into it, I like this "idividualism quote" where the line is "To the individualist, the truth is more important than any authority, including himself. ".
Here is the url.
http://www.vix.com/objectivism/Writing/RaymieStata /WhatIsIndividualism.html
Its a good essay, maybe not perfect, but one thing they are right on about is the seeking of truth.
.
Lately my line is "double, triple and quadruple check everything a feminist sais" So I will check out what you said.
.
Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Saturday June 29, @02:17PM EST (#61)
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Dan, it's hot out. Maybe you need a cold beverage to cool yourself off a bit. You're making assumptions that you can't justify based on my postings. Who said anything about feminism? Is it feminist to complain when society pushes men and women to unwanted, unnecessary marriages? I argue not. And they do push both genders, because, in their minds, we should all be married, regardless as to whether or not it we support their agenda.
Of course, there are lots of hate mongers out there--male hate mongers, female hate mongers, marriage hate mongers, etc., and they all have an agenda--control. Does it make any of them right? To my mind, no.
Further, when you review the Rutgers studies, (http://marriage.rutgers.edu/default.htm) you will find one of the lead honchos, David Popenoe, is very supportive of male and father rights. These people are rabid about their marriage agenda and they will blame anybody until they get what they want.
While there are certainly male hate mongers doing studies, the marriage movement people are equal-opportunity bashers.
I've done quite a bit of research on this because I am so offended by it for men and women, and if I can be of any help in your review, please leave me your email and I will be happy to provide some of the links I studied. No reason to do the same work twice.
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<<These people are rabid about their marriage agenda and they will blame anybody until they get what they want.>>
The divorce industry??
<<While there are certainly male hate mongers doing studies, the marriage movement people are equal-opportunity bashers.>>
Wonderful, same as the divorce industry. (Or wait, isnt that a feminists responce to everything "divorce"?
<<I've done quite a bit of research on this because I am so offended by it for men and women, and if I can be of any help in your review, please leave me your email and I will be happy to provide some of the links I studied. No reason to do the same work twice>>
HUH?
Are you saying I should just believe you?? Are you sure you're not a feminist??
Double , triple and quadruple check whatever comes from a feminists yap.
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Dan Lynch
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No doubt marriages turn out very badly for some women. The point many of us are making here, however, is that legislated and case laws are stacked to an extreme against men.
I, too, am sorry that your marriage ended up so poorly.
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by Anonymous User on Friday June 28, @05:11PM EST (#58)
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Touche'. And it a way, that is actually a good thing, because men are so justifiably angry that they don't want to be involved in marriage. While I totally agree that the way we got to that point is abominable, we might as well utilize it to make changes in our society. To make the status or type of relationship desired completely between the two people involved without any kind of government nonsense. To accept living together as a normal type of relationship if it is desired by the couple. To free men from the nonsense in the courts and to normalize self-sufficiency by women--no more lazy welfare mothers. All I am saying is, while what has been done to men really rots, we can't change the past. Let's use it to change the future--get the nonsense off the backs of men and free women from the expectation of marriage. And yes, we still have that idiotic experience, gentlemen--there are still family members and people in our society who have fits when women don't aspire to marriage. Women need to stop chasing marriage so men can stop running from it. Nobody really needs it, except maybe for kids, ok on that one.
Thank you for your kind comment as well. I freely acknowledge that most men would be appalled by my ex-husband's behavior. It's his problem--not about men at all. He's just a drunk.
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I read an article that Australian men are on a "marriage strike" because of what they feel is an anti-male gender feminist social-economic-political-cultural climate in their nation.
I do not agree with the assumption that American males are not marrying because they can find sex easily outside of marriage. The American socio-political-legal-cultural climate is hostile towards males haveing sex outside of marriage for the very reason of pressuring males into marriage which in my mind is a form of indentured servitude towards females in North American society. Female traditionalists and feminists have promulgated laws restricting sexual activity of males in hopes of creating a "sex monopoly" so as to unjustly force men through marriage and dating and otherwise to pay an exhorbitant price for access to a basic human need, sex. Men should reject this attempt to sexually extort financial and personal subservience to females through marriage or otherwise.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday June 27, @11:03AM EST (#25)
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divorced 15 years ago.lost home,business,son.have had the nazis bothering me ever since.
being a business man the logical conclusion is:marriage is BAD business.in the last 15 years i have had several chances to marry...but i live by[what i feel should be] the new golden rule for men....Promise them anything but...give them the shaft!
slavery is BETTER than marriage!
get married and you have the nazis looking in your bedroom window,ready to swoop down and enslave you and put you in prison for the smallest spat.This is the lesson taught by feminazis and the nazi court system.I hope they all cook in thier own stew.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday June 27, @01:16PM EST (#26)
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Not getting married is the only wise option for men in the current culture. Getting married requires taking risk of false accusations of mental abuse, domestic violence, child molestation, and spousal rape. Worse, there is no physical evidence or actual proof required to become imprisoned. In fact this can happen to a man if they simply sleep with a woman. That is because under the law they become domestic partners.
Men must learn that they have the power and right to say no to these abusive tactics that our women and young ladies are taught from birth. Women must be forced to acknowledge that they have created an unacceptable cultural climate of male criminalization without just cause. It is time for men to keep their pants zipped up and their mouths shut when talking to these ignorant woman. Doing so is the single most powerful way to make our point.
Remember, the U.S. has the highest criminalization rate of men in the free world. This is not an accident. We owe it to those victims to stand up for them and demand justice.
Warble
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Getting married requires taking risk of false accusations of mental abuse, domestic violence, child molestation, and spousal rape. Worse, there is no physical evidence or actual proof required to become imprisoned. In fact this can happen to a man if they simply sleep with a woman.
It begins to seem that the closest things to safe sex for men are:
1. Sex with prostitutes. False accusations can hurt their business.
2. Gay sex. The government may decide to crush you both for being male, but at least your partner won't be given extreme preferential treatment for being female.
3. Group sex. You'll have witnesses that it wasn't rape.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday June 27, @02:48PM EST (#31)
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Sex with prostitutes. False accusations can hurt their business.
Interesting that you should point to this issue. Yesterday, my male activist group (ncfm) worked on some of our activities to lay the foundations for over 20 lawsuits. In this case I had to visit a strip club. Of course, I would never normally do this except that there is a higher cause at work here. There was nothing about the experience that I found pleasant or fun. Instead, I found it to be very risky.
For example, I had on a shirt from my company that happened to have a logo. Well one of the women asked me for my name and the location of the company. Right then and there I learned to never give out an actual name or to identify your place of employment.
That is because in CA a woman can assign false paternity to any male. All they have to do is give the name of a male and the last known address or even a fake address. Then they wait a few months and poof! You are the father of their child. In Los Angeles Country alone, 79% of all paternity judgments are done in this way.
Needless to say, realizing that a strip dancer can defraud men with the help of the state of CA has scared the hell out of me. The fact is that it isn't safe to visit strip clubs or prostitutes and allow them to learn of your identity.
If you do visit such a club, you must remain anonymous and have no identifying marks. Don’t even let them see the license plate on your car. That is because they can legally steal all of your money with the aid of the state of CA, and if you don’t cooperate you go to jail.
Men must learn the truth. In reality, we are at war.
Warble
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Good post, Warble. I was being (somewhat) tongue in cheek when I said that the closest things to safe sex for men are sex with prostitutes, gay sex, and group sex. All of these are often considered, rightly or wrongly, risky sexual practices.
There is no safe sex for men.
Men must learn the truth. In reality, we are at war.
This is unfortunate, but it is definitely true.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday June 27, @03:22PM EST (#33)
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I was being (somewhat) tongue in cheek when I said that the closest things to safe sex for men are sex with prostitutes, gay sex, and group sex.
Yea. I realize you were using some dark humor. However, there are those that actually believe we can have an outlet with prostitutes. Tragically, many men fail to realize that even prostitutes are in the game to get all the money they can get from men. They will stop at nothing including state sanctioned paternity fraud. These women are smart and they do network with each other on how to use the system against men.
We also need to remember that many of the women in political and legal offices today financed their education through their sexual exploits at strip clubs and etc. That makes them among the most dangerous of all women.
Warble
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @01:31AM EST (#68)
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Actually, there IS one type of "safe sex" for men. You can't get your right hand pregnant, and your right hand can't sue for allomony.
Yup, the ONLY "safe sex" for Men is with Miss Thumb and her four daughters.
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Fair warning. I hope that many men, who might consider going down that road, heed your words.
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Fair warning. I hope that many men, who might consider going down that road, heed your words.
I am quite optimistic that the word is getting out. There is clearly a great undercurrent of men and good women that recognize there is a fundamental problem with fairness in the legal system. Our job is to ease them into a different and foreign perspective that will liberate and generate actual equality among the genders.
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Where to start? I don't agree with this author on almost everything she's written based on her faulty frameworking of the issues.
1. People who WANT to be married will find a way to be married. What she is proposing is a paternalistic "victim" mentality whereby the poor unmarried people who want to be married claim they are being prevented from being married. This is just ridiculous. Life is a series of trade offs, and marriage is no different. If you want to be married, you will find another person who wants to be married.
2. If men are "enjoying a sexually active single life — often with a live-in girlfriend" then so are the women involved with them! No one is forcing these women to have sex with them and live with them. So, one has to conclude that the women want committment free sexual liasons too, since no one is holding a gun to their heads forcing them to live with men. Again, the author's premise (by ommission) is that women are somehow "victims" of men not wanting to commit. She fails to acknowledge that women are voluntarily agreeing to more casual arrangements themselves.
3. "The researchers also found that young men are often wary of marriage because of worries that they will marry the wrong person, be forced to make too many compromises or take on too many burdens as a husband, or suffer huge losses if the marriage ends in divorce." ___ What! A person with this many "worries" is not a good marriage prospect in the first place. Her faulty premis here is that a woman would actually want to marry someone with serious doubts about marriage, or a cynical attitude about marrige. Her second faulty premise in this regard is that there are many women who harbor the same fears. Some people are better off not married, since the definition of marriage is trust and a desire for long-term committment. Its just DUH! common sense that you would not enter into a marriage with a person who thought it was doomed to fail. Would you enter into a businsess partnership with someone that pessimistic about success?
4. Biological clock. The premise is that women are panicked about not not getting married soon enough to have children. First off, many women who want to have children oftentimes wait anyway until they have established their careers etc. Refer to #1 above. If having a child and marriage is top priority for them, they will do it earlier, not later. If it is a secondary (or lower) priority then they have made a trade off. The underlying premise of this author is that women aren't capable enough to know what they are doing, prioritize their life goals, and figure out a way to meet their goals.
I find the whole biological clock thing to be insulting to women. If you want to be an Olympic pole vaulter you can't wait until you're 35 to start working on it, no matter which sex you are. Likewise with having kids, everyone is aware of age limits to certain physical realities.
5. "Traditional social forces, such as the family, religion and the workplace, used to pressure men toward marriage, but that is no longer the case, she said." ___ This is so insulting to men ... that they not only now, but have always had to be "pressured" into marriage. She fails to mention men WANT to be married, some of them. Why would anyone want to be married to someone who was "pressured" into marriage. If we're talking historically, many people over the eons have been "pressured" into marriage by arranged marriages etc. Do we think that is a good thing? What exactly is she saying here?
6. "This means that it falls to an individual woman to press for marriage, which is why women are more likely to ask for a definition of their relationship or propose marriage to a man, Mrs. Whitehead said." ___ Making your intentions known at the outset of the relationship if fine IMO. It's called honesty. I have no problem with women if they state up front that they are interested in marriage. If the man is not interested, then if he has integrity he will say so and let his intentions be known. We're talking about adults here. In any case I don't believe it is in the best long term interest of anyone (not only women) to "pressure" other people to do things they don't want to do. Therefore I disagree with what this author is saying. Also, IMO she is pretending to reporting the facts, but it seems more like she is advocating what she thinks is appropriate... such as women "pressuring" men to marry.
Also, this is insulting to men because she is not acknowledging that men are autonomous individual who can make their own decisions without "pressure" being a part of it. It is insulting to women to assume that a woman has to "pressure" someone to marry her, in lieu of just finding someone who wants both marriage in general and marriage to her in particular.
I'll stop here. The whole thing is condescending to mature adults who are capable of making their own life choices.
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"I'll stop here. The whole thing is condescending to mature adults who are capable of making their own life choices. "
You're getting better Lorianne.
But men are afraid of suffering unfairness in the courts.
Its not about the easy sex, hell; they can get that when they are married from their wife or someone elses wife.
Honesty , integrity. Nice sentiments. But when one side has such an upset balance in power things will always go poodoo. Why should men get married? Into a life of torment and abuse, doenst sound all that exciting. Keep government out of the bedrooms.
Men are going to jail for throwing tea towols at their wives, meanwhile she can throw stab, whatever and she's still seen as the victim.
Think about this.
Dan Lynch
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I just sent an invitation to the researchers to share any insights that they may have. Here's the text of my email to them:
I thought you might like to know that there is an online discussion of your project, as reported today in the Washington Times, at the Men's Activism News Network. Any insights that you would like to share would be greatly appreciated. Be forewarned, however, that as is typical of online discussions some of the comments have been rather "heartfelt." You can access the discussion at http://mensactivism.org/article.pl?sid=02/06/26/17 31256&mode=flat&threshold=-1.
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Barbara Dafoe Whitehead's bio is at marriage.rutgers.edu/whitehea.htm. Her interest in modern feminist women's "problems" finding a suitable mate appears to be long-term.
The actual text of the report is a little more balanced than the newspaper report. It states
The ten reasons why men won?t commit are:
1. They can get sex without marriage more easily than in times past
2. They can enjoy the benefits of having a wife by cohabiting rather than marrying
3. They want to avoid divorce and its financial risks
4. They want to wait until they are older to have children
5. They fear that marriage will require too many changes and compromises
6. They are waiting for the perfect soul mate and she hasn?t yet appeared
7. They face few social pressures to marry
8. They are reluctant to marry a woman who already has children
9. They want to own a house before they get a wife
10. They want to enjoy single life as long as they can
The number 1 reason, however, remains sex.
The Rutgers website has a list of marriage myths. Since feminists usually post handy lists of facts under that title, I thought it might be worth a look.
Generally the perspective appears to be a conservative pro-marriage position rather than a radical feminist one.
They do claim that " 4 Having a child together will help a couple to improve their marital satisfaction and prevent a
divorce. " is a myth.
Research I have seen suggests that couples with 3 or more children have a much smaller probability of divorce than those with zero. This makes sense from a sociobiological perspective.
It does repeat as fact the claim that men's standard of living increases on divorce while women's dramatically drops. (The corollary that marriage causes a drop in men's standard of living and a dramatic increase in women's doesn't seem to get nearly so much airplay, for some reason).
Those who like this sort of thing
will find this the sort of thing they like.
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The problem with these conservative pro-marriage campaigns is they are trying to sell something to young men which is, largely, not what they really want and not in their interests. They wont or cannot acknowledge this and so their attitude is always that "there is something wrong with young men", and their tone to young men often belittling (eg medicalizing their reluctance to commit), hectoring or shaming.
cheers,
sd
Those who like this sort of thing
will find this the sort of thing they like.
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The claim that men's living standard rises after divorce while the woman's dramatically falls is bogus and has been disproven by psychologist Sanford Braver of Arizona State who conducted a major, publicly funded, multi-year research project. His book "Divorced Dads - Shattering the Myths" is an eye-opener.
Feminists are fond of stubbornly making false claims no matter what the evidence indicates. I don't believe half of what they say.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @01:43AM EST (#69)
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(((I don't believe half of what they (feminists) say.)))
Collins, You shouldn't believe ANYTHING they say!
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SD observed:
The actual text of the report is a little more balanced than the newspaper report.
Yes, it is a little better. They still couldn't resist some snide editorializing about men's willingness and desire to be stay-at-home dad's though:
"(However, it remains to be seen whether they would continue to hold this view if they actually had the responsibility of full-time house and childcare, or whether they would prove themselves to be competent primary caregiving parents.)"
It seems to me that when they ask why men won't commit, they are asking why men aren't willing to help a woman have and raise kids.
I have an idea in my head, maybe from old movies, that men used to say things like "I'm looking for a good woman to have my children."
What a difference in attitude and expectation. Can you say "disenfranchised?"
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I think it is short sighted of these researchers to not look for more 'modern' reasons men are avoiding marriage.
How about no real protection from accusations of domestic and child abuse? These two accusations are potent weapons often used by ex-wives and their lawyers to get the upper hand in a messy divorce. A messy divorce could be construed as any resistance by the soon to be ex hubby. So that has to be trumped.
Another devious tactic scorned ex wives are using more and more is accusations of marital rape. That is 'she said/he said' and trying to disprove a negative is nearly impossible. So the man usually goes down the tubes.
Also the State and Federal government have become too involved in micro managing men's domestic lives through Draconian misandric law like VAWA and "deadbeat dad" oriented child support enforcement were even drivers and professional licenses can be suspended. Who needs to marry the damn state too and have that iron heel always on your back or like the sword of Damocles hanging constantly over your head?
Marriage for men has devoled into a sublime slavery over the past couple of years.
There just are not that many masochistic men out there to fulfill the needs of the institution of marriage and keep it going.
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Extremely good post. I would add this comment. Young men tend to have extremely urgent sex needs while at the same they tend to be very trusting (they do not expect wickedness in individuals as they have not experienced the same)and optimistic about the future. All of the above makes them extremely vulnerable to be vicitmized through marriage, as you have alreadly clearly delineated.
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Here's an article describing the acquittal of a woman who apparently murdered her husband. In the trial, the claim was made that she was battered, but the article gives no indication that he had ever been convicted of this or, for that matter, even arrested.
Here's another article about a woman who was allowed to walk (suspended sentence, probation, and mental health treatment) after murdering her husband. The man wasn't even accused of doing anything wrong. The woman, however, allegedly suffered from postpartum psychosis.
Why in God's name would a man get married today?
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Check your premise. Collective demonizing of all women as murderers is faulty reasoning.
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Check your premise. Collective demonizing of all women as murderers is faulty reasoning.
Nice, typical straw man, Lorianne. I clearly never collectively demonized all women as murderers. My point was, quite clearly, not that all women murder their husbands but rather that women can get away with murdering their husbands.
Once again, Lorianne falsely attributes a statement, belief, or act to someone and then declares that the statement, belief, or act is wrong. We should all learn to recognize this standard, feminist tactic.
You crack me up, Sweets. I have to say, I can't figure out if you're being clever and know that you are lying, or if you're so confused that you actually believe your own distortions and lies.
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"....women can get away with murdering their husbands"
Would that be ALL women can get away with murder or SOME women can get away with murder?
Would you like to provide some statistics to back up your claims? What is the actual risk of being murdered by your wife, enough to say that marriage is ill-advised?
And by the way is it the murder that you're concerned with, or the fact that they get away with it? Because the way you frame your warning, the fact that the hypothetical husband is dead seems somewhat secondary to the fact that the hypothetical murderer "got away with it".
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For the record, I'm ignoring Lorianne.
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For the record, I'm ignoring Lorianne.
Good idea. She is intentionally focusing an a very small segment of the whole argument, and she is ignoring all of the other issues that make the practice of marriage very risky for only men.
Unfortunately, this is what the radical feminists have planned for. They are the ones who intentionally pressured our legislators into passing these absurd laws that criminalize men with no evidence. While this was happening these very same complainers supported NOW in their criminalization of men. Well it is time for women to learn that there is a consequence that goes with spreading male hate and denying us basic rights.
Let the marriage strike begin and continue till women undo the damage that they created and supported.
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Let the marriage strike begin and continue till women undo the damage that they created and supported.
I do believe this society be collapsitizin'.
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by Anonymous User on Friday June 28, @10:40AM EST (#50)
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Lol this is too funny. How could you possibly think any woman would want to marry jerks like you?
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by Anonymous User on Friday June 28, @10:46AM EST (#51)
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Lol this is too funny. How could you possibly think any woman would want to marry jerks like you?
The same logic that causes you to believe we care what you think.
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Lol this is too funny. How could you possibly think any woman would want to marry jerks like you?
The same logic that causes you to believe we care what you think.
Now...now people... go easy. I remember when I first saw this site. The idea of belonging to a men's group was quite radical to me. It scared the hell out of me. The only thing that helped me to reconsider is that I was subjected to massive false accusations and learned how bigoted against men the system is.
Even then visiting this site seemed very distasteful. Men have been brainwashed to believe we are nothing more than silly whiners. It is our job to help them see otherwise.
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @01:54AM EST (#70)
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"The same logic that causes you to believe we care what you think."
That was PRICELESS, I love it! (^-^)
Thundercloud.
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That's because you can't answer what she said. :P
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That's because you can't answer what she said. :P
Nope.
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The fact that you refuse to elaborate tells me that she has you talked into a corner.
:P
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The fact that you refuse to elaborate tells me that she has you talked into a corner.
Nope.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday June 27, @07:02PM EST (#42)
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"And by the way is it the murder that you're concerned with, or the fact that they get away with it? Because the way you frame your warning, the fact that the hypothetical husband is dead seems somewhat secondary to the fact that the hypothetical murderer 'got away with it'."
I'll jump in here for ya, Thomas(not that you need the help, but because I can't resist).
To Lorainne:
When the fear of repercussion for an illegal act is absolved, it follows that the illegal act is forthwith likely to occur in increasing frequency, all other variables remaining unchanged.
In other words, when *some* women recieve probation or full pardons for murdering their spouses, it communicates to the public that male spousal murder is a quasi-acceptable practice. You probably shouldn't do it - unless you have an excuse (and excuses are like assholes...).
Consequently, cultural inhibition for male spousal murder is relaxed, and, this being the case, many men may be subsequently reluctant to become a spouse. It's not really rocket science.
I should note that, based on personal observance of the media, these occurences of women receiving pardons from the state are not particularly rare when battered women's syndrome is presented in the defense. If you insist on me dredging up actual instances, then I'll find some, although I'm not aware of the actual statistics on the matter and I don't have time to find them with summer classes and all going on. Perhaps Marc or someone has the stats on hand? I don't pretend that these outcomes happen entirely frequently, but they do happen often enough to catch my eye on an occasional basis (how's that for scientific method? :)
-hobbes
---
If you're not mad, you're not paying attention
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I'll jump in here for ya, Thomas(not that you need the help, but because I can't resist).
Thanks, hobbes. Truth be known, I'm actually startin' to enjoy this battle. (I guess that's because I now see that good people are gonna win it.)
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by Anonymous User on Thursday June 27, @07:11PM EST (#43)
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>What is the actual risk of being murdered by your wife, enough to say that marriage is ill-advised?
If you even have to ask what the chance is of your wife killing you then yes, marriage is definatly ill-advised. Knowing that women have done it and not even served jail time is also a factor.
>Would that be ALL women can get away with murder or SOME women can get away with murder?
All men and women CAN get away with murder. But only some DO get away with murder. The laws in place assist women, and women only, in harming their husbands and\or taking shared property for their own without any evidence of wrongdoing. (and before you ask, covering up murders commited by men or women is not the point of this post. The point is that any laws that allow a person to take advantage of another must be used carefully. Currently there are few or no checks and balances to ensure that women can not ruin a man's life with impunity.)
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<<All men and women CAN get away with murder. But only some DO get away with murder. The laws in place assist women, and women only, in harming their husbands and\or taking shared property for their own without any evidence of wrongdoing. (and before you ask, covering up murders commited by men or women is not the point of this post. The point is that any laws that allow a person to take advantage of another must be used carefully. Currently there are few or no checks and balances to ensure that women can not ruin a man's life with impunity.) >>
I wonder if this is related to the fact that women have the "majority vote"????? I bet it is. Any takers?
Dan Lynch
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I'll take you up on it.
The simplest answer is, yes, it's because women have more votes. Since we like to do things via direct domacracy these days (having long since forgotten or never cared that we are a constitutional republic), it's not a question of whether these laws and policies violate "equal protection" or other such nonsense-- its all about who has the biggest coffers and most votes.
Sadly,
Remo
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Here's another article about a woman who was allowed to walk (suspended sentence, probation, and mental health treatment) after murdering her husband. The man wasn't even accused of doing anything wrong. The woman, however, allegedly suffered from postpartum psychosis.
Good point. If men were treated equally with women then there would be a thing called testosterone poisoning. The doctors would report that the male suffered from a momentary period of insanity induced by an excessive release of testosterone. Then they would argue that men who kill their wives were actually innocent and deserving of special considerations instead of doing jail time.
Instead, what we have is a wide spread climate of male hate sponsored by radical feminist and supported by most women and men in the public. Until that climate changes, a man is simply ignorant or just stupid if they marry.
In my case, I married 10 years ago and the insanity wasn’t so glaring and obvious. I would never make that same choice in the current climate. It would be simply idiotic of me to do so no matter how nice, amiable, loving, and altruistic the woman. The system is just too stacked against men to stand a chance should something happen accidentally or otherwise.
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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In my case, I married 10 years ago and the insanity wasn’t so glaring and obvious. I would never make that same choice in the current climate. It would be simply idiotic of me to do so no matter how nice, amiable, loving, and altruistic the woman. The system is just too stacked against men to stand a chance should something happen accidentally or otherwise.
Exactly. I'm married to a wonderful woman, but we married 18 years ago. I don't think that I would marry again. It's not that my wife is bad, it's that the system is evil. Marriage is a legal contract that is great for women and a noose around the neck of men.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 27, @02:03AM EST (#71)
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And you're one of the LUCKY ones.
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The first mathematical principle:
The (negative) difference between expected income after marriage and the expected income before marriage equals the probability of divorce times the cost of divorce.
There may be other terms that offset the introduction of the new term (the probability of divorce times its cost) in the mathematical expectation of income after marriage; however, this is the significant term. Also, the probability of divorce decreases with age; this is one reason for postponing the decision to get married.
The second mathematical principle:
The relation between the level of beauty of a mate and the energy needed to begin and maintain a relationship with person at a given level of beauty is exponential; for example, a ten-fold increase in energy is required to go from a 7 to an 8, a one-hundred-fold increase in energy is required to go from a 7 to a 9, and a one-thousand-fold increase in energy is required to go from a 7 to a 10.
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I think this industry has got to go.
I am a trained family mediator, and I think Im not even going to do divorces. Some of my plan is to formulate pre-marriage seminars that teach people how to "negociate" with their spouse. I also think that can do well during marriage. Keep them together, and prepare for it better.
The divorce industry is a big problem in the hostility towards the sexes, and only other people "profit" by it. Sick people.
Dan Lynch
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