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Sweet. Thankyou Wendy for helping NCFM et al!
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The Suicide Rates for Australia as reported in the article 'Are Fathers' Rights a Factor in Male Suicide?' linked to this article are incorrect.
There has not been a 70% increase in Male suicides in the age group of 25 - 44 year olds over the past two decades. There has been a 9% increase overall in male suicides since 1980 although the amount of male suicides were higher in the 60's and the 30's than currently. The ratio of male to female suicides of 4:1 has been reasonably steady (peaking at 5:1 in the 30's) since the 1920's which is when statistics began in Australia.
I don't want to trivialise male suicide but only to wish to have things accurately reported. What is making men suicide at the rate of 4:1 is something that has underlied statistics since they began in the 1920's (in Australia at least) and the solution needs to be sought with that in mind and not simply from some idea that only now are men suiciding at the rate of 4:1.
I don't know the US statistics - can't work out how to use your Bureau of Statistics - it is pretty confusing.
I am wondering about Child Support in the US and elsewhere - I am beginning to believe from reading on the internet that CS is much tougher in other countries than it is in Australia. I came across a report of a CS related suicide where a UK man was ordered to pay his estranged with 27 pounds worth of this 39 pound unemployment benefit and it shocked me - in Australia if you are on unemployment benefits you don't have to pay a cent in CS. And then there was the case linking to this article where a NC parent (female) had to pay $500 approx of her $1500 approx per month to her ex.
Our child support is nowhere near that tough. In Australia 40% of men pay no child support while another 20% pay less than $23 per week for the children - even in the higher categories you are not going to lose 30% of your wage - no way.
So what is it like over there?
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That was supposed to say 20% of men pay less than $23 per week *per child*
And with the suicide rate it may be interesting to note that females *attempt* suicide more often than men do.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday June 05, @07:09AM EST (#5)
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____And with the suicide rate it may be interesting to note that females *attempt* suicide more often than men do.
It is a well-known fact that women attempt suicide more than men do, but women do so without the intention of actually killing themselves. Rather, they do it for attention.
Men kill themselves out of desperation.
Also, the statistics from Australia are based on a government study from that country which is freely available online and was discussed in-depth on this site months ago. Search the archives for it. I am sure it is still there.
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Can't find the thread on this list but put in a search through the Aust stats to see if I could find it.
The actual survey that showed the 70% increase was taken from 1988 to 1997 - so it is highly selective.
The fact is with the exception of the second world war and then fairly low but steadily rising through the fifties the lowest statistics for male suicides was during the seventies and eighties up to 1988.
No fault divorce came in in mid seventies with the attendant jump in divorces - on that statistic you could say that divorce lowered the suicide rate (tongue in cheek) - while in 1988 we had the stock market crash and Australia's economy has never been the same (and this when suicides started to rise).
The all time low (ie most suicides) for male suicide was during the depression.
Our divorce rates have been going down steadily in Australia the divorce rate has gone from 47% to 30% over the same period that male suicides has increased.
The highest suicides are among divorcees but only marginally when compared to other single groups (male and female) but there is more in the statistics than just divorce or the trend would not be so low for a decade+ of high divorces and then go up when divorces are going down and would not have been so high during the 1920's, 30's and 60's when their was no 'no fault' divorce.
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The actual survey that showed the 70% increase was taken from 1988 to 1997 - so it is highly selective.
Huh?
The fact is with the exception of the second world war and then fairly low but steadily rising through the fifties the lowest statistics for male suicides was during the seventies and eighties up to 1988... Our divorce rates have been going down steadily in Australia the divorce rate has gone from 47% to 30% over the same period that male suicides has increased.
Again, your sources?
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday June 05, @09:01PM EST (#10)
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____The highest suicides are among divorcees but only marginally when compared to other single groups (male and female) but there is more in the statistics than just divorce or the trend would not be so low for a decade+ of high divorces and then go up when divorces are going down and would not have been so high during the 1920's, 30's and 60's when their was no 'no fault' divorce.
You will notice that the report does not single out divorce as the only contributing factor to male suicide. It also pinpoints alienation from children and men's lonliness.
Also, I would consider a report from 1988-1997 to be highly important to determining why modern men commit suicide worldwide at the astonishing rate they do.
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Ah but that happens to divorced and separated men and so is included in the statistic.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday June 05, @09:59PM EST (#16)
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___Ah but that happens to divorced and separated men and so is included in the statistic.
It does not follow that only divorced/separated men get depressed over alienation from their children and lonliness, especially considering how many children are born out of wedlock every year.
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The statistic in Australia is approx eight marriages to every one defacto relationship. Although that doesn't count sole parents when the father leaves at the start.
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As I said in answer before I did not intend that as a compliment to women so I agree with you.
With the archives I did a search on 'Australia' and a search on 'Suicide' and when they turned up nothing I went through the headers to no avail.
Perhaps it was a sub-thread and the search doesn't look into sub threads?
Either way I found the study being discussed on the Australian Bureau of Statistics website as mentioned elsewhere.
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it may be interesting to note that females *attempt* suicide more often than men do.
Females are not that much more stupid and incompetent than males. When a female truly attempts suicide, she is as likely as a male, who truly attempts suicide, to succeed.
Taking a dozen aspirin, and immediately calling your best friend to say you've done this, is a far cry from putting a 45 calliber into your head. The success rate for attempted suicide is probably the same for females as for males. (Again, females aren't that much more stupid or incompetent.) This means that the attempt rate for males is about four times the attempt rate for females.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday June 05, @09:04PM EST (#11)
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___Taking a dozen aspirin, and immediately calling your best friend to say you've done this, is a far cry from putting a 45 calliber into your head. The success rate for attempted suicide is probably the same for females as for males. (Again, females aren't that much more stupid or incompetent.) This means that the attempt rate for males is about four times the attempt rate for females.
This is completely wrong. Men are more successful at suicide attempts because more women's suicide attempts are cries for attention, and not genuine attempts. This is fact, and has been mentioned as such in a variety of studies that break suicide down by gender.
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Ah - I actually meant that as a compliment to men, like that women suffer depression also but are just less effective at following through!
And do I win a prize if I point out the contradiction in your comment when you say that the attempt rate for males is about four times the attempt rate for females and that women don't really make a serious attempt when they attempt suicide as an explanation of why there are more attempts by women.
Actually the second assertion is true, the first assertion is false. Women attempt to commit suicide MORE than men do overall even though they are rather overwhelmingly unsuccessful at it.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday June 05, @10:02PM EST (#17)
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___Actually the second assertion is true, the first assertion is false. Women attempt to commit suicide MORE than men do overall even though they are rather overwhelmingly unsuccessful at it.
You found no contradiction because you are responding to two different people. You are correct, though, that women attempt suicide more often than men but are that men are more successful. The 4-in-1 figure is actually the rate of success, and not the rate of attempt. The same studies which prove that women attempt more often than men also confirm that fact.
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And do I win a prize if I point out the contradiction in your comment when you say that the attempt rate for males is about four times the attempt rate for females and that women don't really make a serious attempt when they attempt suicide as an explanation of why there are more attempts by women.
That statement makes no sense.
Women attempt to commit suicide MORE than men do overall even though they are rather overwhelmingly unsuccessful at it.
Nonsense. Women are not that stupid and incompetent compared to men. The success rates for true attempts to commit suicide are roughly the same for males and females. Taking a little handful of aspirin and immediately calling a friend, parent, or doctor is not a true suicide attempt. It may be an attempt to get attention or sympathy. It may be a cry for help. It is not a true attempt to commit suicide.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday June 06, @01:21PM EST (#32)
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How the hell would any of you know if a woman genuinely wanted to commit suicide or not?
It's a well known fact that men are more successful at suicide simply because they tend to choose guns or hanging as the method of suicide.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday June 06, @03:02PM EST (#36)
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_____Nonsense. Women are not that stupid and incompetent compared to men.
No one has said women are "stupid and incompetent compared to men." You should really read what has been said prior to mouthing off. What has been said is that men are more likely to die from suicide attempts because men are more likely to *genuinely* want to kill themselves, while women are more likely to do it as a cry for help. Considering that more attention is paid to women's mental health problems than men's right now, I'd say that strategy has worked rather well, so they can't possibly be "stupid and incompetent."
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It's a well known fact that men are more successful at suicide simply because they tend to choose guns or hanging as the method of suicide.
I've known two people who've eaten about a dozen aspirin and immediately called for help. Though their actions were classified as attempted suicide, I don't believe they wanted to kill themselves. If they had wanted to kill themselves, they would have chosen a very different course of action. The fact that men use handguns and hanging is exactly the point. If you want to commit suicide, you'll pump a 45 into your head. If you want to live and get attention or maybe some help, you'll eat a few aspirin and call for help.
The claim that females attempt suicide more often than males, while males succeed four times as often as females, smacks of a feminist distortion of the facts -- an attempt to make it sound as though females suffer as much as males. Women and girls are not that stupid and incompetent compared to men. If women and girls wanted to kill themselves more often than men, they would succeed more often than men.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday June 06, @02:56PM EST (#34)
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____uld any of you know if a woman genuinely wanted to commit suicide or not?
Read the studies. Women attempt suicide as a means of getting attention more often than any genuine desire to kill themselves. When men attempt suicide, it is more often with the sincere desire to themselves in. Why this bothers you, I don't know. It is fact. It is proven. And that's why male suicides need different attention than female suicides right now.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday June 06, @02:59PM EST (#35)
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____The claim that females attempt suicide more often than males, while males succeed four times as often as females, smacks of a feminist distortion of the facts -- an attempt to make it sound as though females suffer as much as males. Women and girls are not that stupid and incompetent compared to men. If women and girls wanted to kill themselves more often than men, they would succeed more often than men.
This is not true. There is no "feminist agenda" behind these "claims." The facts support that women *attempt* suicide more often than men, but do so as a means of getting attention, not sincerely wanting to do themselves in. Men are more successful at suicides because men are more likely to sincerely want to die. Why you think this makes women victims as much as men is beyond me. Considering it is men who are dying more than women, the facts "smack" of a need to pay different, special attention to the mental health needs of men. It's that simple.
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The facts support that women *attempt* suicide more often than men, but do so as a means of getting attention, not sincerely wanting to do themselves in. Men are more successful at suicides because men are more likely to sincerely want to die.
Your statements are self-referentially inconsistent. (You're contradicting yourself.) If the actions taken by the women are a means of getting attention and the women are not sincerely wanting to do themselves in then these acts are not suicide attempts.
Men are more successful at suicides because men are more likely to sincerely want to die.
Precisely, their acts are suicide attempts, not cries for help or cries for attention, which are wrongly classified as suicide attempts.
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You should really read what has been said prior to mouthing off. Control yourself.
What has been said is that men are more likely to die from suicide attempts because men are more likely to *genuinely* want to kill themselves, while women are more likely to do it as a cry for help. Think of what you've written. If women's acts are cries for help, absent a desire to die, they are not suicide attempts.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday June 06, @03:31PM EST (#39)
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____Your statements are self-referentially inconsistent. (You're contradicting yourself.) If the actions taken by the women are a means of getting attention and the women are not sincerely wanting to do themselves in then these acts are not suicide attempts.
You are employing semantical tactics so you don't look like an idiot.
____Precisely, their acts are suicide attempts, not cries for help or cries for attention, which are wrongly classified as suicide attempts.
No one said MEN were attempting suicide as cries for help. I said WOMEN were. Methinks you just like to see yourself post.
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You are employing semantical tactics so you don't look like an idiot.
Whooo, heeee! Smoootchie.
No one said MEN were attempting suicide as cries for help. I said WOMEN were.
You're confused enough to be a feminist. Clearly I never claimed that anyone said men were attempting suicide as cries for help. I've said that women cry for help or attention and that act is classified as a suicide attempt, while men truly attempt suicide more often than women.
This is a standard feminist ploy that you are using. Claim that someone has said something that the person hasn't said, and then debunk the statement that the person hasn't made.
Your confused thought processes remind me of a feminist who often posts here, but normally identifies herself. You wouldn't happen to be Lorianne would you?
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Actually, I have to say, "You are employing semantical tactics so you don't look like an idiot," and "Methinks you just like to see yourself post," don't sound at all like Lorianne's style. I suspect she's above that. My apologies, Lorianne. I was wrong to write that.
Anyway, just about everyone, whom I've seen post here, can see through your obfuscations (uh oh, another big word!) We're all familiar with the silly, straw man tactic.
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This is completely wrong. Men are more successful at suicide attempts because more women's suicide attempts are cries for attention, and not genuine attempts.
You misunderstood me. My whole point is that many of the actions that are classified as attempted suicide by females are in fact not attempted suicides.
Females who truly attempt suicide will be successful at roughly the same rate as males who truly attempt suicide. If males commit suicide at four times the rate as females, then they are in fact truly attempting suicide at four times the rate of females.
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Oh - now I understand - yes agree.
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The Suicide Rates for Australia as reported in the article 'Are Fathers' Rights a Factor in Male Suicide?' linked to this article are incorrect.
There has not been a 70% increase in Male suicides in the age group of 25 - 44 year olds over the past two decades. There has been a 9% increase overall in male suicides since 1980 although the amount of male suicides were higher in the 60's and the 30's than currently. The ratio of male to female suicides of 4:1 has been reasonably steady (peaking at 5:1 in the 30's) since the 1920's which is when statistics began in Australia.
derry: What are your sources? Please provide us with citations, especially if we can find studies and health department statistics for Australia online.
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www.abs.gov.au - Australian Bureau of Statistics.
I would like to add that the 70% increase in the age group was as a proportion of the overall statistics, ie their was a corresponding decrease in suicide in the category of over 45 or more particularly in the over sixty-five categories.
Another interesting statistic is that widowers are MORE likely to suicide than divorcees (by .9%) so the bitchiest thing a woman can do to a man is obviously to die on him and leave him with the children ;)
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I know that this statistic contradicts the previous assertion that I made stating that divorcees had the highest suicide rate in the breakdown - I did not have the male/female breakdown on this and it was the female statistic that was pushing up the number.
FEMALE divorcees suicide TWICE as much as widows and more than any other category (single, married). Now that is a 100% increase and that is a significant statistic.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday June 05, @10:04PM EST (#18)
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____FEMALE divorcees suicide TWICE as much as widows and more than any other category (single, married). Now that is a 100% increase and that is a significant statistic.
It is not true that female divorcees suicide at more than any other category. They may *attempt* suicide more than any other category, but, again, those attempts are for attention and not genuine.
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You misunderstand me - not more than any other category. Just twice as much as female widows do and more than any other FEMALE category.
Don't worry - men still lead the suicide statistics with a 4:1 average over women.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday June 06, @10:11AM EST (#30)
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____Don't worry - men still lead the suicide statistics with a 4:1 average over women.
It is not something to be proud of. It is something to be worried about and a problem which needs a great deal of attention from society and the psychiatric community. Men's mental health has long been ignored.
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www.abs.gov.au
This is not a citation. It is the URL to a very large Website. Do you have a citation for any of these "facts" that you are presenting?
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For anyone who is interested, here is a citation:
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/2D9CECF2 A5763A65CA256A7100188A5B?Open&Highlight=0,suicide.
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3309.0 Suicides, Australia
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/2D851D65 31E05C66CA256911001300B3?Open&Highlight=0,suicide
Australian Social Trends 2000
Health - Mortality and Morbidity: Suicide
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/2D9CECF2 A5763A65CA256A7100188A5B?Open&Highlight=0,widowers
These are the articles that your group would have discussed that talk about the upward trend from 1988 to 1997:
3309.0 ABS finds suicide highest in 25-44 age group
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/040B5B63 A136A2B2CA2568B7001B069C?Open&Highlight=0,suicide
Health
Special Article - Suicide (Year Book Australia, 2000)
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/BE00331A 0C387533CA2569DE0024ED5B?Open&Highlight=0,suicide
The title is misleading the highest suicide rate for men is actually 25-34 while the person who wrote the article obviously had an agenda by lumping in the 35-44 age group which actually has a marginally lower rate than than the 15-24 year group if averaged out over the 9 years of the sample.
The age range most likely to suicide among the women was the 45-54 age range followed by the 34 to 45 year old age range while mens stats go down after age 45.
If you combine this with the fact that the statistics for female suicide among divorcees is double than for widows while the statistic for suicide for male widows is higher than for male divorcees only very marginally - but we are talking as a percentage overall and not as a percentage of widows compared to a percentage of divorcees.
There are approximately twice as many divorcees as there are widows but unfortunately I could not find a male/female breakdown on widows. I do remember hearing that over the age of (I think it was 65) there are 6 females to every one male so I would expect that the majority of widows are female.
If at a guess you say that widows make up only a quarter of the amount of male divorcees - which I consider is a consertive guestimate (although only a guess) then that would mean that a widowed man is four times more likely to suicide as a divorced man.
While if I apply the same to woman then divorced women commit suicide 8 times as often as widowed women. But I am just playing around here I don't have the male/female breakdown for the widowed statistic.
None the less mens rates over all are four times higher. So why women commit suicide is less relevant given that solving the male problem obviously has to have the priority.
The median age that men are at divorce in Australia is 40.5 years old. Which doesn't explain while most men commit suicide at the 25-34 age group - in fact with the median range of marriage for men being 28.5 then if there is a correlation then it is more likely to be marriage and not divorce that is killing men ;)
Really though - all age groups are fairly close in the male statistics though. Females on the other hand double if you compare teenagers to the middle year categories although that evens out as the 90's wear on.
If you look at them you will find that in the majority of cases when male suicide rates increase in a year so do female. So both are being stressed.
There is a trend for females to commit suicide more the older they get while men tend to become less inclined to commit suicide as they get older (maybe because they are already dead!)
And if you want to look more deeply into this then purchase a copy of:
Suicides, Australia, 1921-1998 (Cat. No. 3309.0).
I am not sure if the above links work. But really - just go to the front page and type 'suicide' in the search field and press go - you will get everything.
And aren't any of you going to share with me the US Stats?? You think the ABS is hard to work out - I find your one impossible. I can only get labour stats as though that is all that counts ;)
I have said again that I get the impression that things are really very different in the US and would be interested to know that difference - which includes what is happening with CSA payments there compared to Australia. Can anyone inform me?
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God must be tired. I can't do my own stats for nuts. Ran through the figures on widow to divorcee rates again and come up with male widows committing suicide as a percentage compared to divorcees making them ten times more likely suicide while females come out aprox even stevens this time.
If someone else will do the math I worked it based on their being approx 1 million widow/ers and 2 million divorcees with a ratio of 4 female widows to one male while divorcees are 50/50 male/female and then took the stats that Male widows and divorcees suicide contribution are the same amount (not as a percentage) while Female divorcees are twice the suicides of widows.
Oh someone shoot me for being stupid enough to even try to work it out!
But that is the only bit I tried to work out myself.
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derry: Thanks for all the citations. I'm really busy at work and only had a chance to take another quick look at the site, but it's certainly full of well organized info.
The median age that men are at divorce in Australia is 40.5 years old. Which doesn't explain while most men commit suicide at the 25-34 age group - in fact with the median range of marriage for men being 28.5 then if there is a correlation then it is more likely to be marriage and not divorce that is killing men ;)
Interesting catch.
As for searching for US stats, try the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention:
http://www.cdc.gov/search.htm
I've done a lot of searches there; it's and incredibly informative site, though searching can take a bit of digging:
Also, for some summary data on suicide, take a look at:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/fact_book/26_Suicide.htm.
And thanks for turning me/us onto that Aussie site. (Do Australians mind being called "Aussies?") It's full of good info.
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Thanks for that Thomas.
Found this link under the CDC that gives a decent amount of stats in pdf form.
http://www.suicidology.org
The document is called:
USA Suicide: Official Final Data
and it gives a ten year overview of stats with age and sex breakdowns.
Just looking at the US stats and comparing the difference to Australia.
The 4:1 ratio men to women is the same
But we commit suicide more than you do, eg:
US 11.4 (1997) (per 100,000)
Aus 14.7 (1997) (per 100,000)
Especially at the end of the decade.
US suicide stats are going down
Aus suicide stats are going up
Your elderly are committing suicide the most (65+ with 85+ the worst)
While our worst group is 25-34 year olds
(The US stats don't give a Male/Female breakdown for age groups)
As for Calling us Aussies that is fine - we call ourselves Aussies too. But we pronounce it differently to you. You say OR-ssies and we say O-ssies (the O being a short vowel sound). Some Aussies get upset about that but I don't mind. :)
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oh - and I have compared our child support payments to the US payments for Non-custodial Parent earning $30,000 per year with Custodial Parent and I was right you do pay more - you are paying TWICE as much as Australians are. Some calculators made allowances for tax so I subtracted 6,000 p.a. for tax from the $30,000 to even them out.
Doesn't explain our suicide rate ;)
If I find more time I will play around with other amounts but I don't have time now.
Here is the link to the Australian Calculator if anyone is interested:
http://www.csa.gov.au/calc/advanced.htm
While if you want US ones there is a different one for each state. I just typed in Child Support in the US into Yahoo to get them.
I told you Aussie NCP's have a better deal. Hey we even pay men to take access to their children (FTB) - whose moving out here? ;)
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Maybe a bit of background on what is happening in Australia may help illuminate why suicide rates are climbing here since 1988.
The eighties were econimically brilliant in Australia, until 1988 and the stock market crash, since then a good deal of our traditional international markets have been eroded (US has taken a lot of them), prior to this, although we are considered a capitalist country we were really half captialist/half socialist in structure.
We had a massive welfare net - services which have been steadily eroded away with new cuts to programs being aggressively advanced.
But more than that there is the huge changes that have been made by the privatisation of many government utilities.
Transport, power and telephone among many others were part of our 'public service'. And our public service was huge.
Joining the public service was considered a really soft and safe option when planning your working life. Once in you did not get the sack no matter how incompetent you were, promotions were based on length of service not on ability and there was a very lucrative superannuation scheme that mean that old age was assured to be comfortable provided you were loyal and did not leave the service. The drawbacks of leaving with the loss of the superannuation and with the loss in the chain of promotion made people very loyal - but not very competent.
The jokes about the lazy bloated public service were rife.
But that changed - not only has there been an aggressive policy to privatise as much of the public service as possible but the old terms of rewards based on loyalty only have been pared back and even if you are in you are no longer secure.
The result of this was that a huge amount public servants got the sack and many others lost their cushy superannuation.
My brother and 2 brother-in-laws were affected by this.
My brother was one of the very few in his department that managed to stay employed (not surprising with his abilities - he is definitely not your average worker) with the new privatised, pared down and sleek version of the Superannuation Board that he had worked all his life in - although he lost his superannuation package and that was a heap.
While one brother-in-law managed to hold on to his job under the same conditions as my brother (in our Telecommunications company) they are not fully privatised as yet so it is not over for him yet and he is still on living in anticipation of the guillotine, while my other brother-in-law after 26 years with the railways was packaged off and has not been able to find himself any thing more than casual work now for two years - now there is a candidate for suicide and that isn't his wife's fault - they are both at their wits end.
Because of the 'loyalty' versus 'competence' attitude of the public service, people with mental problems, alcohol and drug dependencies or lower than average competency for whatever reason all could still get employment and even among our more competent their were many who liked the security of the public service. That is gone and it has caused a massive shift in comfort and security levels.
Our private sector is not doing that crash hot either and everywhere there is a new insecurity that is so different from our previous easy going 'she'll be right, mate' attitude.
The unions that used to be so strong have been crushed also - no longer are there union controlled award wages but each individual has to negotiate their own deal directly with their employer in an individual contract which they are bound to not discuss with other workers.
The gap between the rich and the poor is beginning to yawn open in a way we have not had in the past and our average week has crept up from the 40 hour week standard to 57 hours currently with many jobs expecting you to be on call with no extra for overtime.
Comparative to what you have in the US we are probably just becoming more like you, but compared to what we used to have EVERYONE is becoming increasing insecure here. Of course the suicide rate is going up.
I am not going to say for one minute that men are not suiciding because of divorce but the economic drivers are stronger here in australia. Otherwise our suicide rates would have been up when our divorce rate was up and not have increased as our divorce rate goes down.
1988 is definitely the beginning in a very dramatic down turn in our fortunes and in the whole structure of our workforce. The IT crash two years ago and the WTC bombing has only forced us down lower. One of our major airlines crashed last year (another brother lost his job from that - he has returned to school and is studying to become a primary school teacher) and two of our major insurance companies have also crashed (they are currently changing legislation at the moment to limit insurance payouts because 70% of our doctors are threatening to stop work as they are not insured past the end of the year and even that only because our government has stepped in to the breach to cover them until then).
That the suicides increased from 1988 ties perfectly with our economic position - not our divorce rates.
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