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I'd be willing to do one every now and then.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday February 27, @08:51AM EST (#2)
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I'm neither an avid movie goer nor an accomplished reviewer, but my son drags me out now and then so I'd be happy to pass along my thoughts on what I see.
Frank H
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by wiccid stepparent on Wednesday February 27, @12:39PM EST (#3)
(User #490 Info)
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Obviously I couldn't provide the male point of view required to write reviews, but I definitely would be interested in reading them. Particularly I would be interested in any reviews regarding movies intended for children and/or families.
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That last point is a really important one, Wiccid.
What I sure don't want to see, just to add my two cents, is a depressing litany of stereotypes, one after the next, found in movies. I could easily go to work as a staff correspondent for Ms. magazine and review a movie a week that contained some negative implication or stereotype that marginalizes women. Easily. And they'd probably never know I hate their magazine, because narcissistic little conniption fits are so much easier to belt out than a genuinely thoughtful pespective.
The greater chalenge is to find the bright spots, to laugh at the genuinely clever, and generally seek insight. Art is, after all, nothing but chaos given form, an expression of our connection to the inexplicable and the infinite. And there's a lot of it out there. As a consequence, we may see more crap, but more worth watching also.
So I suggest that whoever does this, if anyone, look at the film medium through, yes, the masculist perspective (whatever that means to them) but also with a necessary pinch of good humor and good old fashioned objectivity. The end result might not be sexy, but at least it will be honest.
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Very good points, Nazgul. Good reviews almost always cover both the good and the bad in a movie, and discuss things such as plot, character development, etc.
There must be a site or two out there that discusses what makes a good movie review. Does anyone know of a page that lists some good guidelines?
I'm encouraged by the interest in this, and if people would like, I can set up a separate e-mail list where people can discuss movies or decide who is going to see or review what movie. Let me know if this sounds good or if there is a better way about doing this. My only concern is to help keep the momentum going, and not let this fizzle out (as did the book reading group MANN started in January).
Scott
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday February 27, @03:03PM EST (#5)
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bassbomb44@hotmail.com
Pete Denn
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I often go to the movies, and instead of just gnashing my teeth at certain anti-male notions, I'd like to call them out. This can also work the other way, pointing out movies that are pro-male, or at the very least, fair to both sexes.
John Kartal
airkart@hotmail.com
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday February 27, @07:51PM EST (#8)
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I've written extensively about the movie "Fight Club," which I consider the Ur-movie of modern masculinity -- in the same way "The Wizard of Oz" encapsulates the journey of Western civ.
Anyone interested in how post-WWII males got into the mess they're in -- and more importantly, what they're gonna have to do to get out -- should watch "Fight Club."
Over and over.
Melissa Flintknife
Chief Administrator
Boulder City Library
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I am unclear in what you are looking for. Are you looking for a theoretical discussion of the movie or a general "thumbs-up, thumbs-down" type of review. I actually am currently studying film theory and critical analysis of films in college. So I am capable of reviewing movies and would be very interested in practicing my writing skills in this area. The only problem is I would probably only go to a movie once a month or so. I would suggest that several people be involved and the movies be selected ahead of time. Also a board that is specifically set aside for the reviewers and other select people to discuess ideas and make sure there are not people submitting two reviews for the same movie.
(My interest in film theory tnitially started because I wanted to examine male images on film but now I am interested because feminist film theory is once again the ONLY gender lens used in examining films. I am currently working on a paper for this term about the representation of fathers on film. I am looking at how fathers were represented in the movie "Mrs. Doubtfire." (my opinion is that it is VERY negative representation of men as fathers.)
Tony H
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I am uncertain why you thought Mrs. Doubtfire was a negative representation of fathers. I thought it was very touching. I wish my daughter's father had ten percent of that dedication to being with one's kids.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday February 28, @02:55PM EST (#14)
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Yes, but you do realize that crossdressing isn't really condoned in "normal" society.
But Robin Williams did get shared parenting in the end, so I don't see what's wrong.
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Crossdressing isn't condoned in "normal" society, and this is even further proof that the character played by Mr. Williams was willing to do anything to be with his kids. More parents should be so willing, though hopefully most wouldn't have to go to that level.
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well I will send you the entire paper when I finish it this weekend sometime. Here is a shortened version of my thesis until then. (note: This is film theory and involves a great deal of theoretical discussion.) I do agree that the main narrative of the movie was to highlight the issues fathers have during a divorce. I think that it did cover many of the problems that occur for many men: bias courts, vengful mothers and the general sense of loss and depression that men feel during a divorce.
My analysis revolves around the way that the movie presents the changes that a father needs to accomplish to be accepted as a capable parent.
To me the images that are presented indicate that men are inferior parents unless they are feminized. In the movie "Mrs. Doubtfire" he literally has to become a maternal figure to gain access to his children. It is through this figure that he changes and becomes more maternal and thereby a more capable and accepted parent. A quote from the movie by the mother is, "She (Mrs. Doubtfire) brought the best out in you."
Another indication is a key to examining films is to look at the opening and closing scenes. These are often resemble before and after pictures. One of the subtle images in this movie was the car that Robin Williams drove. Cars, according to film theory, are a representation of masculininty on screen. This difference in this movie was that the car was a stationwagon, which is a traditional car driven by mothers. The change in the father is represented by the change in the car from the beginning of the movie and the ending of the movie. The first scene of the movie the car is dirty and knocks due to lack of maintaince. When something is dirty it is a cinematic symbol that indicates masculinity. The last scene of the movie the car is washed and waxed and runs smoothly. Cleanliness on screen is a symbolic representation of femininity and domestication. This is a subtle cinematic portral of the change that took place in Robin Willams by the end of the movie. The change that was needed to be accepted as a parent and gain access to his children was to literally wash him clean of his masculinity.
NOTE: I do realize that much of this sounds far-fetched and "reaching" for relations between social meanings and on screen images but it is surprising the frequency these images are repeated on screen. I don't think many people would be interested this type of examination of films but cinematic representation of men and masculinity is an area of study that is seriously lacking in attention. And Fathers lack any serious attention at all in academic film literature.)
Tony H
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I actually have read articles about the representation of gay and cross-dressing in Mrs. Doubtfire and yes your right it is an example of the extremes he was willing to go to for access to his children. This is not what the articles discuss. In actuallity there are NO serious articles I found that talk about the representation of fathers on film. (peer reviewed, journals or academic books all deal with hegemonic masculinity and the representation of the male body on screen.)
Tony H
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"Cars, according to film theory, are a representation of masculininty on screen."
I don't even want to tell you what my husband drives then, and in what condition.
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I am uncertain why you thought Mrs. Doubtfire was a negative representation of fathers. I thought it was very touching. I wish my daughter's father had ten percent of that dedication to being with one's kids.
I actually have to agree with that. Robin Williams' character was so dedicated to his children that he put himself through the whole Mrs. Doubtfire thing and almost lost a job for them.
I never liked the way it ended, but it did show how much power Sally Fields' character had over Robin Williams' character's life and the lives of the children.
I loved Robin Williams' line toward the end of the film where he's arguing with Fields (who has finally decided he can see the children again). He basically tells her he has a right to be pissed at her because she took away his children.
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i liked the movie as well but the focus of my paper is on the changes that occurred in the father. This does not mean that the entire movie is trash or that noone can enjoy it. What message did the movie send to fathers? What changes occurred in Robin Williams during the movie to indicate to Sally Field's character that he was ready to be a parent.
THis is all based on film theory and analysis of the images and characters.
If anyone reads Spreading Misandry it uses a moral lens to examine other films including Mrs. Doubtfire.
Tony H
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I liked it so much I bought it. My husband thinks I'm weird.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday February 28, @01:40PM EST (#13)
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Judging by your posts, no doubt your husband is right
But then I think HE'S weird -- the punch was supposed to be in HIS ribs
Anyway your online persona reminds me a little of the H.B. Carter character, the freaky Bride of the protagonist
She was superb in that role
The revolutionary male can expect to have strange bedfellows, allies of the most unlikely sort.
Missy Brigade
Coordinator
Fellowship of Grrrl Power Presbyterians
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I've written extensively about the movie "Fight Club," which I consider the Ur-movie of modern masculinity -- in the same way "The Wizard of Oz" encapsulates the journey of Western civ.
I actually intend to watch "Fight Club" this weekend.
Boulder City Library
Hey, aren't you the library that hung the man-hating domestic violence display?
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by Anonymous User on Friday March 01, @05:52PM EST (#21)
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"Hey, aren't you the library that hung the man-hating domestic violence display?"
Obviously you fail to appreciate the destruction that domestic violence wreaks on the lives of millions of women in America. Every three seconds, 666,000 women in the United States are victims of domestic violence.
And those are only the REPORTED figures.
That display was a cry for help by a brave, lonely artist battling against the rapist patriarchy of America.
They should lock that thief up immediately and throw away the key. A few years in the cell with Bubba will teach him some respect for women.
Please tell your friends about our upcoming exhibit! We’ve got the St. Dominic’s fifth-graders scheduled for Monday morning, and Boulder Junior High attending in the afternoon.
This time we’re using the real thing!
And goddess be blest, we live in a town with no lack of willing volunteers!
Melissa Flintknife
Chief Administrator
Boulder City Library
p.s. – DO post your reaction to that violent, misogynistic movie when you’ve seen it.
Blood Sisters Forever!!
'lissa
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And maybe your not aware that there are 800,000 + men who were abused (1.2 million women) facts are from 2001 goverment report of violence against women. In addition to the fact that men are much more unlikely to report any domestic violence than women are. (all these facts you can look up.) To make any display that tries to indicate that men are only the purpetrators and not victims as well should be shut down. The display was misandry in its ugliest state. If they had a counter display of female breasts hanging from line then I would consider the idea of the display.
If you plan to argue your point on this site I would be prepared for a heavy handed and very vocal response. The people here are very well educated and knowledgable about DV and the feminist propaganda that goes along with it. I would suggest reading the books Spreading Misandry and Abused Men to gain a better understanding of male victims.
Tony H
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"Obviously you fail to appreciate the destruction that domestic violence wreaks on the lives of millions of women in America."
Sorry, no one *I* know, fails to appreciate anything of the sort, not the fact that there are women in America who are really abused. It's the obscure "millions" many of us have a problem with. Do you fail to appreciate the statistics, many of which seem to have much more credibility than yours, that point out that women and men abuse each other in equal numbers, or that women are more violent toward their children, than men? Andrea Yates, Susan Smith, Marilyn Lemak, anyone? Sorry, I forget, it's the husband's fault. And Yates' aunt says, there shouldn't even have been any charges.
" Every three seconds, 666,000 women in the United States are victims of domestic violence.
And those are only the REPORTED figures."
Well, you've got us there; if the figures are actually REPORTED [in the largely liberal, feminist-symapthetic media, I might add], they must be true, set in stone, unimpeachable...right? Sorry, I have been a fool.
"That display was a cry for help by a brave, lonely artist battling against the rapist patriarchy of America."
If she has someone on her side, such as yourself, in a position of authority, who's running a public library[and public means "run with public funds", right?], she's hardly brave or alone.
"They should lock that thief up immediately and throw away the key. A few years in the cell with Bubba will teach him some respect for women."
Please explain to me, the logic here. How is getting locked up "with Bubba" only to be sodomized and beaten, going to teach him anything of the sort? And the fact that you know there are men raped in prison, every day, should also tell you that most men are as powerless as most women, if that weren't a fact you could conveniently ignore.
Certainly, if he WERE to be incarcerated immediately and have them "throw away the key", [has there even been a TRIAL yet?] then that would prove what we have been saying on this site, all along, that it is slowly, or not so slowly, becoming a criminal offense to be a man in this country.
"Please tell your friends about our upcoming exhibit! We’ve got the St. Dominic’s fifth-graders scheduled for Monday morning, and Boulder Junior High attending in the afternoon."
So you can indoctrinate more young girls to hate boys, and more young boys to hate themselves? Not with my help, sorry.
"This time we’re using the real thing!
And goddess be blest, we live in a town with no lack of willing volunteers!"
No comment and no comment.
Sorry, Ms. Flintknife, you may not be the definition of a troll [at least you gave us a name], but that doesn't mean you're not deluding yourself.
Those who claim to be brutally honest, enjoy the brutality more than the honesty.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday March 02, @02:34PM EST (#25)
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sat-ire, me boys
sharpen thy wit as well as tongue
'lissa
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @06:19AM EST (#26)
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A name perhaps, but a false one.
Frank H
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"sat-ire, me boys
sharpen thy wit as well as tongue
'lissa"
Ahhhh...is THAT it? Sat-ire, hmmm? Is that anything like, "you're being entirely too sensitive," or "what's the matter, don't you know how to laugh at yourselves?" I think so, when we find the material funny. But that's just me. Considering the article about castration that just appeared at this site, I am not exactly sure that many others will feel differently, either. But again, that is just me.
Those who claim to be brutally honest, enjoy the brutality more than the honesty.
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"p.s. – DO post your reaction to that violent, misogynistic movie when you’ve seen it."
Violent, certainly; but did you really find it to be misogynistic? Certainly the male and female leads had a love-hate relationship going on, but I don't think it was portrayed in a misogynistic fashion.
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"p.s. – DO post your reaction to that violent, misogynistic movie when you’ve seen it."
Violent, certainly; but did you really find it to be misogynistic? Certainly the male and female leads had a love-hate relationship going on, but I don't think it was portrayed in a misogynistic fashion.
OK, I saw "Fight Club" Saturday night (finally!), and I must say that I found it immensely enjoyable, especially the way "Jack" (Edward Norton) interacted with the audience not only via his voiceover, but his actual eye contact with the camera in some scenes, like where he's explaining how Tyler cuts scenes of pornography into Disney flicks.
I also thought that the beginning of the film captured the essence of the feminization of the American male. It's personified in "Bob" (Meat Loaf), a victim of testicular cancer whose own body has punished him for his masculinity by growing "bitch tits" (an apparent result of the overuse of steroids). Jack--himself a modern man, lost in his pop culture desire for stuff and status--meets Bob in a testicular cancer support group, where the men are encouraged to hug each other and cry.
Jack finds this to be a great outlet for his insomnia, until Helena Bonham Carter's character enters the picture. Like Jack, she's a "tourist," someone who goes to the support groups just for the emotional release and not because she's really affected by the same problems of the support group members. Carter's presence in the support groups ticks Jack off. He knows she's a tourist, and it bothers him that she's interloping on his territory. It spoils the fun, and the effect.
Then Jack meets Tyler (Brad Pitt). And, after his apartment explodes, moves in with him. Tyler is Jack's opposite. He's the man without inhibitions, the unfeminized masculine. He does what he wants and how he wants it done. He detests the manipulative, feminine ways of pop culture and media (the constant need for more stuff for status). The two bond after Tyler convinces Jack to hit him in a bar parking lot, and Fight Club is formed.
Suffice it to say that Fight Club grows by leaps and bounds, adding chapters in city after city. Members recognize each other by their bumps and bruises, but they don't talk about it. It's a secret world, a man's world, where men can be primal, where they can take out their frustrations in bare-fisted boxing matches, and feel the rush of their adrenaline. Fight Club is exclusively male, in fact. When Carter's character asks Jack about this new support group he's enjoying so much, he refuses to tell her anything about it, and flatly says, "It's for men only."
The only female in the film, Carter holds her own with the rest of the male cast, although beyond Jack's annoyance with her there seems to be very little purpose to her character's continued presence in the film once she's driven Jack away from his original support groups. The filmmakers attempt to justify her character at the end of the film, and she is a few times the object of Jack's masculine protective instincts--as well as a thorn in his side. She also tends to come between Jack and Tyler early in their friendship, but the viewer is left to wonder whether Jack genuinely has a problem with her carnal relationship with Tyler, or if he simply doesn't care. There's not enough distress in Jack's character for the former, and not enough indifference for the latter.
No sooner has their bond has formed, though, than the relationship between Jack and Tyler begins to break apart; the uninhibited masculine versus the inhibited one. The one who will steal liposuctioned body fat to make soap versus the one who worries about what happens if he does.
And it is this battle up to which all has been leading.Overall, "Fight Club" is a history lesson. It shows us where we've come (Jack), where we've been (Tyler), and how we got there: who we are inside who we are. And it's not afraid to show the bloody destruction of souls left in our wake.
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @02:25PM EST (#31)
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"The only female in the film, Carter holds her own with the rest of the male cast, although beyond Jack's annoyance with her there seems to be very little purpose to her character's continued presence in the film"
she harrows her own hell -- as the feminine inevitably must -- in mirror image of jack
she is his soror mystica, and like feminism, goads the regeneration of the masculine
the film concentrates on the mytho-psychic journey of the masculine, however, and so the parallel descent of the feminine is explored only briefly
it takes place “off camera,” so to speak – although subtle clues are scattered throughout the film, alluding to it
"Overall, "Fight Club" is a history lesson. It shows us where we've come (Jack), where we've been (Tyler), and how we got there: who we are inside who we are"
jack is what we are now
as in jackshit
but we have not yet met tyler, much less vanquished and integrated him
John Wayne
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but we have not yet met tyler, much less vanquished and integrated him
I am Jack's desire not to reveal the twist in the plot. :)
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @02:58PM EST (#33)
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See, this is why I can't be a movie reviewer, and why I could never write a book like "Spreading Misandry." You guys get into a movie FAAAARRR too deep for me. I like reading the reviews, though, because then I can say to myself "Yeah, that's what I thought too." I only say it to myself though, lest someone actually think I could do that kind of analysis.
I guess I'll have to rent this movie.
Frank H
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I guess I'll have to rent this movie.
Get it on DVD if you've got a DVD Player, Frank. There are commentaries on there from Pitt, Norton, Carter, the director, and several others.
One other weird thing you'll find out in the special features is that the sex scene was CGI. Nope that wasn't Helena Bonham Carter's naked body pressed against Brad Pitt. It was CGI modeled from their body doubles.
Weird.
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @05:07PM EST (#35)
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"He detests the manipulative, feminine ways of pop culture and media (the constant need for more stuff for status)"
I object. There is nothing more "feminine" than masculine about pop culture. Pop culture is. There is no gender attributable to it. I will say, for those who are about to jump on me for the former comment: one of my favorite lines in the film (regarding a coversation about marriage) is "We're a generation of men raised by women. I'm not sure another woman is what we need."
"The only female in the film, Carter holds her own with the rest of the male cast, although beyond Jack's annoyance with her there seems to be very little purpose to her character's continued presence in the film once she's driven Jack away from his original support groups."
She serves three purposes - a) the bit of sex interest most movies seem to need; b) a female character, to draw women to see the movie; and c) ultimately, she is the character closest to Jack who is able to tell him in terms he understands, his true nature (I'll leave this blank, for those who haven't seen it).
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object. There is nothing more "feminine" than masculine about pop culture. Pop culture is. There is no gender attributable to it. I will say, for those who are about to jump on me for the former comment: one of my favorite lines in the film (regarding a coversation about marriage) is "We're a generation of men raised by women. I'm not sure another woman is what we need."
The gender attributes of pop culture are hinted at more than once in the film. For instance, the bar scene when Tyler questions why guys like them know what a duvet (sp?) is. Likewise the Gucci naked man underwear ad that Jack points out on the bus: "that what a real man looks like?" he asks of the wisp thin, non-hairy, feminine-looking male model. There are countless other jabs at the femininity of pop culture, including the fact that Tyler inserts photos of male organs (masculine) into Disney flicks (feminine).
"The only female in the film, Carter holds her own with the rest of the male cast, although beyond Jack's annoyance with her there seems to be very little purpose to her character's continued presence in the film once she's driven Jack away from his original support groups."
She serves three purposes - a) the bit of sex interest most movies seem to need; b) a female character, to draw women to see the movie;
I definitely disagree on b). Brad Pitt draws women to this film, not Helena Bonham Carter. Likewise, the younger female set probably heard the rumor that there are two brief instances of full frontal male nudity. That was one of the reported reasons there was high young female attendance at both Any Given Sunday and Much Ado About Nothing.
and c) ultimately, she is the character closest to Jack who is able to tell him in terms he understands, his true nature (I'll leave this blank, for those who haven't seen it).
I disagree that she "tells" him his true nature. He finds that out for himself and through Tyler. To me, she seems more of an observer of his journey than a genuine participant.
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Okay, okay, I'll give you that Brad Pitt is a hottie and a crowd pleaser. However, I have always been intrigued by Helena Bonham Carter and would have gone to see this film to see her if Brad Pitt's character had been given to another actor. Also Edward Norton is an incredible actor in his own right, ever see American History X? He got nominated for an Oscar for that one. It was a disturbing but excellent film.
I stand by c) though.
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"I disagree that she "tells" him his true nature."
I could have put this a different way, 'tis true; but I was trying not to give away too much of the story.
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Speaking of giving away the story:
Here's an interesting critique of the film:
http://www.criticism.com/md/fightclub.html
You should ONLY read it if you've seen the movie or if you don't mind the plot and secrets being completely spoiled.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday March 05, @02:50PM EST (#42)
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she is his other half
they drag one another along like the cripples they are
oops i mean challenged
the scene where h.b. carter, in bride-of-frankenstein gown, exits the "mansion" propels you right back to oz
pitt is mesmerizing, meat loaf works, and ed norton underplays with divine subltety
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Hi all,
I intend to send out an e-mail to everyone who expressed interest in this movie review project tomorrow (Friday). I'll also post the message here. Then we can decide what the next step will be.
Scott
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For those of you whom I didn't receive this e-mail message, please e-mail me and let me know you're interested, so I can add you to the mailing list when it gets created:
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Hi folks,
I apologize for taking so long to get back to you - I had promised to send this e-mail out on Friday. In any case, it looks like we have a good number of people willing to do reviews, so it will be easy to spread the work load out. My main hope is that we can get this started without it fizzling out or people feeling too pressured to want to get things done. I hope we can strike a balance and make this a successful project.
I'm in the process of creating a new e-mail list for MANN movie reviewers, where you can all discuss what movies you intend on seeing and reviewing, and I figure if each of you could do one in-depth review every two months, this will work out quite well. I'll also see if I can find a web site or two which discusses how to write movie reviews to make sure we follow some normal guidelines for doing so. Who knows, perhaps this project will appeal to many people because it mixes entertainment with men's issues? You could be responsible for introducing newcomers to the men's movement!
So if you don't hear from me by Friday, please bug me so I make sure to get this done. :)
Thanks,
Scott
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @10:33AM EST (#29)
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“I'll also see if I can find a web site or two which discusses how to write movie reviews to make sure we follow some normal guidelines for doing so.”
This is a worthwhile project, and thanks to Scott for the organization, but I have no intention of following any guidelines – especially “normal” ones -- in my writing.
“I figure if each of you could do one in-depth review every two months, this will work out quite well.”
Bro, how about we get the blimp off the ground before you decide how often to re-paint it? First let’s see if you’ve got anybody who can write a movie review.
Harrison Chevy
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