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What are the differences between this and the Hitler Youth? The only one I see is that the HY had a lower age requirement.
This is the chilling scenario those of us who oppose the draft have been predicting for decades.
It is time for those of us who still care about freedom to act. We cannot let this happen, nor can we continue to let Selective Service remain. If we do, the consequences will be disastrous. We need to have millions of people flooding the streets, screaming and holding signs.
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It is time for those of us who still care about freedom to act. We cannot let this happen, nor can we continue to let Selective Service remain. If we do, the consequences will be disastrous. We need to have millions of people flooding the streets, screaming and holding signs.
You have my 100 percent agreement. AND WRITE YOUR LEGISLATORS!
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This is, indeed, slavery.
In many places around the world, proposals are being seriously considered to simply release women from prison, irrespective of the severity of their crimes. In Russia, the government has already started to enact this outrage. Men, on the other hand, are being hauled off to prison in record numbers and may soon be hauled off against their will into the military or some quasi-military body.
This may well soon remind us far more of concentration camps than of the Hitler Youth.
Never forget: Women are the majority of voters and the majority of the voting age populace. Women are the government.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday January 30, @05:29PM EST (#5)
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We all knew this was coming.
Men are considered to be disposable human beings.
There's another proof. As if we needed one.
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Well, in the worse case men will be the ones trained in arts of combat. So when they finally get fed, they already have the training, the mindset, the motivation, the weapons......
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Well, in the worse case men will be the ones trained in arts of combat. So when they finally get fed, they already have the training, the mindset, the motivation, the weapons
The male-hating sickoids have no idea what they may well ultimately bring down on themselves, if men rise up to defend themselves from their oppressors. I am not promoting violent revolution, but I do see that it may well come if things don't turn around quickly and dramatically. The ultimate rulers of our society, white women, would do well to wake up and see what's barreling down the track at them.
I just had a wonderful talk with my wife. Each day she is more horrified by how extreme and prevalent anti-male hatred has become. In her words, "It is now snowballing out of control."
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I would support a mandatory term of service for men and women in the US. It would be a good thing. It is about time someone gives back to the country besides talking out the sides of their mouths.
I spent 6 years in the Marines and found it one of the most rewarding periods in my life. Other countries have a mandatory service for homeland protection. Why not the US? I am not a liberal and definitely not a Democrat... and most definitely see a need for folks to give back to the country. Instead of acting the ass their first four years away from home...how about spending the time productively? Maybe the rich kids will know what it is like to work and not have their backsides wiped by a well off mommy and daddy.
It is a sorry country that relies on the underprivileged to defend their sorry ass. It happened in Viet Nam and it should end now.
And if anyone wonders what "conflicts" I might have seen... There were a few: Panama, Kuwait, and Liberia.
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No, it would not be a good thing. I do not want government agents busting down doors at 2 a.m., dragging screaming, terrified "draft dodgers" out of their beds, beating them to death with nightsticks if they resist. I do not want 18-year-olds being shot dead as they attempt to escape across the Mexican border. I do not want innocent people to feel they must attempt to escape into Mexico. I do not want 17-year-olds committing suicide to escape a far worse death in war. I do not want to live in a police state that treats citizens like human cogs to fuel the great gov't war machine.
::Instead of acting the ass their first four years away from home...how about spending the
::time productively?
Who defines what is "productive"? Getting an education is not productive? Backpacking in Europe is not productive? Learning a trade is not productive? It is not up to the government to ensure that everyone spends their time "productively" nor is it their job to define what is "productive."
::Maybe the rich kids will know what it is like to work and not have their backsides wiped by a
::well off mommy and daddy.
It's not up to the government to parent these kids.
::if anyone wonders what "conflicts" I might have seen... There were a few: Panama, Kuwait, and
::Liberia.
It is beyond me why anyone who has experienced the horror of war would wish the same on other people, especially terrified people who'd rather sit in a running car with the garage door closed than be forced to die a far more horrific death in war.
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Productivity is keeping your friends and neighbors from being blown to bits by terrorists or other aggressors.
"It is beyond me why anyone who has experienced the horror of war would wish the same on other people, especially terrified people who'd rather sit in a running car with the garage door closed than be forced to die a far more horrific death in war."
Yes it is beyond you. Cowards kill themselves.
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"Giving back to your country" is paying taxes, getting an education and working. Countries become prosporous from this, not so much from killing others.
Without the taxpayer, there would be no military. Military is a liability and is counter-productive. I do admit that a country does need a military for protection, but it isn't always the answer.
Personally though, I think the issue here is the violation of freedom, and discrimination against men. Not whether people are cowardly, or whether the military "does people good". Even if it was proven that such service was beneficial, I would still be against it on principal of violation of freedom.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday January 31, @01:17AM EST (#16)
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Let's put it simply:
Should the USA ever be invaded it is the duty of each US citizen to defend the country. This is not an option, at that point it becomes a civic duty, and should the Gov't have to draft, that would be all the more shame of it. Classical political theory (Plato) states that one of the obligations of a citizen (not a slave) in a country is to defend it. George Washington would have agreed.
In our current volunteer military, and with the current actual fighting taking place across the sea, a draft would be more an option than a necessity. Since drafting IS (like the suspension of habeas corpus) a last-ditch measure, it is perfectly appropriate to object to its use at this point-- esp if it can't even be done in a gender neutral way.
Remo
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Not wanting to die a horrific, painful death, after weeks, months, maybe even years of torture, makes me a coward? I think it makes me sane, especially if I'm being forced to fight for a cause I do not believe in and/or do not understand.
It is not military service I am against. I looked into joining the military. I was told I was ineligible, not due to my gender but because of physical disability.
It is the DRAFT I am against.
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I would support a mandatory term of service for men and women in the US. It would be a good thing.
I completely disagree, but I am curious about your inclusion of women. If you support mandatory terms of service for men and women, then you cannot support this bill, can you? Women are not included.
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I never said that I agreed with this bill. I work at an ivy league institution and see first hand the liberal opinions on the students. They haven't a single clue as to how they got the privleges they now enjoy. I don't really care much for government in it's current incarnation...but I do have a deep sense of duty and love for the nation.
We should probably model our a new bill similar to what Israel uses to enlist their peoples for defense.
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We should probably model our a new bill similar to what Israel uses to enlist their peoples for defense.
What is Israel's law?
Also, I don't think mandatory military service is going to do anything to improve feelings of duty and honor. In every major war in this country into which men were drafted, many came back disillusioned and suspicious of this nation's government, particularly in Vietnam. Forcing men to serve against their will is only going to harden that resolve, especially if it is ONLY men who are required to do so.
Sense of honor and duty, to be instilled in an individual, must be done so in youth, by parents, not by the U.S. military.
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You are right about ...
"Forcing men to serve against their will is only going to harden that resolve, especially if it is ONLY men who are required to do so. "
Forcing SOME men to serve while those with money or connections sit away in some educational facility is very bad. I have always found that when placed in a terrible situation (firefight, accident, ecological disaster), when everyone is involved...it just doesn't seem so bad. Everyone pitches in and helps for a common good.
Granted, it really sucks to be at war. Sleep deprevation, combat-related stress, lack of food & shelter, etc...are terrible things. i wouldn't wish them on anyone. But then again, I would probably hate the person who ran to Mexico or Canada when the country needed them.
The military isn't always about war. maybe this mandatory service thing could be helping in soup kitchens, hospitals, town watches, etc. Everyone immediately thinks the worst. All you pacifists out there...there are otehr ways to serve your country than paying taxes...
Get with it.
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Semper Fi, Zensmile. I just got out a couple years ago myself. First, I agree with you about most college students. I cannot stand the self-rightous "I'm in college, so I must be smart" and then, like mindless drones, soak in the liberalism that permeates every classroom on campus. Back to the issue at hand, however...
I believe that forcing people to enlist will benefit neither themselves nor the military. They won't work because they don't want to be there. Unit cohesion will become non-existant. Taxpayer money will be wasted. People, particularly young men, will grow spiteful and distrustful of their government (which, I suppose is not always bad). On and on.... Besides, why is this even necessary? Most of the branches (with the exception of the Army) are having little or no problem retaining or recruiting their workforce.
I hate the fact that my civil duties to the state are dissimilar from women's. I have to register with SS(S) just to vote, and it irritates me to no end that women do not. Yet, we oppress them. Does anyone know if females are required to perform a single civil duty that men are not? (actually, I don't think anyone should have to register with SS(S)). Removing men's rights further than they already have will not strengthen the nation, it will create (or rather further employ) slavery methods "for your own good". Talk about paternalism.... The military is a wonderful institution for those who CHOOSE that path. Forcing a bunch of punks off the street (or intelligent young men, for that matter) won't be doing the military any favors. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
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"Hmmm...good for everyone to spend time in the military." I am not sure that I have ever heard of anything the was "good for everyone" truly turn out to be as advertised.
"Hmmm...unquestionable respect for your country." If that was the measure of "good" we would still be part on the United Kingdom.
Simple answers to complex problems sometimes make we go Hmmmm the sound I make when I have to give it more thought.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday February 02, @02:17AM EST (#25)
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What if someone doesn't want to serve in the military? What if that person wants to engage in activities that are of a higher value to him?
The ideas of the draft (a form of kidnapping and slavery) and mandatory "volunteerism"--mandatory national service--are profoundly anti-American.
America was founded on the basic principle that the individual should be free to live for his own self interest and purpose. This implies that the government is wrong to force the individual to sacrifice his interests for the government or the community. Slogans like "Don't tread on me!" and "Leave me alone" symbolize the American spirit. Freedom means freedom from the government. It means freedom from the dictates of others.
If you truly believe Americans should be forced into involuntary servitude--you're not an American in spirit. I respectfully request that you consider renouncing your citizenship and moving elsewhere, freeing up space in the US for the millions of people around the world who would better utilize and appreciate the freedoms you take for granted. If you believe that the individual should serve the state, as Hitler did, there are many nations you can choose from which are more consistent with your philosophical values. You may wish to consider North Korea, Cuba, China, or socialist Sweden, or any of several other nations where the government claims ownership of its citizens' lives.
Serving in the US military doesn't automatically make you an American in spirit in spite of the credibility it suggests. Anyone can learn to carry a gun, mouth slogans, wave flags, eat hot dogs and apple pie on the Fourth of July, and claim that they believe in freedom. It's another thing to actually understand what it is and to defend it intellectually.
Anyone who advocates mandatory government service--slavery--while claiming that he supports American values either doesn't understand or know those values or else he really doesn't believe in them.
I suspect that the poster sincerely does enjoy his freedoms and just doesn't understand the vicious nature of the ideas he's advocating, which is the eradication of those freedoms in principle and act. On the surface it seems like a benevolent idea--Americans helping other Americans--but the actual effect--what he ignores--is that it also means enslaving other Americans--it means telling others how to live their own lives. Charity is a fine thing, but enslaving people to accomplish it is profoundly anti-American.
If you want to learn what it is to be an American in spirit, go read The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged.
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You make some valid points. I agree that the military does have many positive effects. (I too was in the military for several years.) It really is a mixed bag. While I think it would help to equalize the gap between the poor who often have little options besides being a "grunt" in times of war and the rich who can avoid drafts and if drafted often can avoid direct combat there are problems with a MANdatory draft into the military. It goes against our basic ideals of freedom, both idealogical and religious. With today's military so relant upon technology the warriors of today can NOT be drafted and turned into productive and intergrated warriors. Unless you consider them cannon fodder like we have been in past wars.
With the USA being the only super power left there is no country (or combined countries) that could stand up to us in a toe-to-toe war. Wars now are going to be fought in a similar way that the conflict in Afghanistian was fought. The use of smaller elite forces and combined military actions (or at least politically with) with other countries to accomplish goals will be the way wars are fought in the future.
The problem I have with this bill is that it is male only. Reguardless if you agree or disagree with a mandatory military service the requirement that men only be drafted is sexist, and that is what this site is about. Many contries have shown that women are equally capable fighters. One of my pet peevs about NOW and other gender-fems is the utter lack of energy and attention they give this issue. They mention it but always in passing and never put any serious political or finacial energy behind it. (I always ask them why they don't just make a campaign and flood the government with registrations for the draft from women just to protest they aren't included.)
Tony H
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I'm torn on this issue.
In one respect I want would like everyone to honorable serve their country. If the wars we actually fight are to defend our borders, then NO ONE should be running from the horrors of war. A person that does not defend their country has no right to be called a citizen. The should definitely not have the right to vote. (Heinlien anyone?). This kind of folds in with my rant about journalists that refuse to wear the flag. If it weren't for this country's constitution, they wouldn't be able to be "impartial".
On the other hand...
The history of what we have recently used our military for is far from ideal. Many attempts to explain how it is defense is dubious. The Orwellian overtone of the "Office of Homeland Security" do not instill any confidence in me. I would not want a state uses the miltary to control citizens and indoctrinate soldiers.
So in the present situation I will oppose this. But if we had a better state, I don't think that this would in itself a bad idea.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday January 31, @08:56AM EST (#18)
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From Pete, American Union of Men:
Males only, hm? So we are the only ones responsible for going off to bleed and die? Our citizenship would seem to cost more.
Thus, shouldn't our rights be worth more?
As a male, I invest more in my country. Sees to me that I should hold a superior class of citizenship. And since my more onerous obligations are enshrined in law, so should my superior rights.
Sounds reasonable to me.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday January 31, @09:53AM EST (#19)
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To protest this, men will have to resist which means go to jail and destroying thier entire life. I think most men will resign themselves and go. Men already kill themselves in record numbers, it will only get worse when they realize that it's their only way out of this. And then feminists have the NERVE to call this a "man's world".
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by Anonymous User on Thursday January 31, @03:38PM EST (#22)
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I would rather live in a world devoid of "superior classes of citizenship" defined by gender. A world where neither gender must worry about compulsory military service. You know, a world where men and women get along and love each other, instead of hate each other and being sworn enemies.
I do not know why "Pete," you or anyone else would actually want to live in the kind of world you just described. It would not be the Utopia you seem to believe it would be. It would be a world where men and women hate each other and would rather live on separate islands than be subjected to the other gender's evil.
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Zoooooooooom, heard that? I think that was the sarcasm going over your head.
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Dear Americans,
I am a 15-yeard old male from rural Alaska, and I would like to say that on behalf of the male and female youth in our great country who have not yet found the freedom or words to describe their burning questions and differences regarding to how the government and military affect their future, America needs you, but you are the one who does not need America.
This goes to say with the deepest respect to my home country of course despite the statement's assumed hostile nature. I am purely for the safety and well being of this nation, but when absolute and infallible ideals of freedom, justice, and liberty are intended go on forever, our nation's ideal of a utopian society of freedom becomes hypocritical and our nation's Constitution and the Declaration of Independence show no difference nor more honor than that of a random copy of a pornographic movie script.
If our nation believes in freedom so much, and has so many people willing to defend it, why in the Vietnam War were young men forced to serve via the draft, even when it plainly puts the validity of our country's ideals and priorities into a state of questioning and/or jeopardy? I believe this has happened because our country had (or can have) an extremely excruciating time accepting the fact that freedom can sometimes not thrive within the very veins of the American people. Yours, the president's, those enlisted in the service, civilians', celebrities', teachers' and mine as I write this very document.
Women are equal to men, and men are equal to women. The recently passed centuries have been a great improvement involving women's rights, and I applaud it with all of my humanity, but to say that a man has no place or foundation for his life because a woman may be impregnated or become a mother and seemingly cannot perform physical feats as to that of a male, is to make women's rights and all feminism regarding the military a complete and embarrassing joke to mankind.
Because America is so advanced and the nations of today are much different than the nations of yesteryear, the average person tends not to think about what they can do for their country as part of a group. They are more interested in careers, family, and friends, and those who support their life on Earth so that they may contribute to peace in the best way they can, living in peace.
After I finish my senior year of high school, I plan to attend a college or university specializing in foreign language and art. I will pay my dues, deliver taxes, and perform voluntary community service to help uphold my nation as well as develop a career that creates positive character values that leads to positive role modelling amongst the youth of the next generation.
If you tell me, that what I do to plan to live my life to it's potential and fulfill my own American dream as well as a female peer wishes to do and that mine is far less important than hers, I reject America. If you tell me, or any other male or female near my age, or any innocent and productive college student (even if they may not receive good grades), that to only be placed in a position of potential death as if it were a cheap circus stunt in order to protect my nation, I will deny America, I will spit upon the stars and stripes and lady liberty and all of my memories of being alive on this soil and promptly relocate myself so that I may attempt to be the free person I once was.
The reason I have only lightly talked about women potentially being in the draft is because there is no question about it. Women are equal to men and they are either both in, or both out. But if people are forced into a draft, America can be no longer. I wish you, the reader, prosperity and love, and I leave you with this. "It takes only one person to destroy a universe's worth of nations built on greed and empty promises."
Sincerely,
Citizen of the United States of America
Argent Kvasnikoff
February 10, 2002
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