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I haven't left, but I can connect with much of what this guy says.
Does anyone else get the "why do you never want to do things together?" question after you've gone off by yourself to do a job or watch a football game? This always makes me seem so unsocial, like a guy who really should have been a hermit. It just seems to me that some things are best done by one person. My John Deere lawn tractor has a seat for one; I don't know how we would make mowing the grass a couple's activity.
I think women see some kind of affirmation in doing things in groups, as long as it's something they want to do. Try getting your wife or girlfriend to spend a Saturday afternoon kicking tires at the car dealerships and you'll learn the female limits on togetherness.
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More stereotyping. As if men don't nag.
Also I hear a lot from men saying that women initiate divorce more readily than men. I have no idea whether this claim is true. But if men (as this guy seems to imply) are justified in leaving a unsatisfactory relationship for any reason, and he puts forth some pretty petty ones if you ask me, then why are woman faulted for doing the exact same thing? Are women supposed to stay in unhappy, unfullfilling relationship and not go running to the divorce lawyer the minute things get unpleasant, but a guy who is fed up with nagging is justified in leaving? This is what he seems to imply.
Basically the divorce rate is so high because both people are inculcated not to put up with petty differences, and that splitting up is the natural remedy.
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To Lorianne:
It is true that women are more likely than men in the U.S. to initiate divorce, especially when children are involved (60-70% of divorces are initiated by women, I believe.) Women are usually the ones who want out of the marriage, and it's not because of abuse or infidelity. It's more likely to be for reasons such as "he doesn't satisfy me emotionally" or "we grew apart". Women in the U.S. may see divorce as more to their advantage. Women are more likely than men to feel in control of the divorce process and to feel satisfied with the divorce outcome. See Sanford Braver's book "Divorced Dads - Shattering the Myths" based on his federally funded multi-year research study.
When some women say they want their men to open up and be more communicative, don't they really mean "you listen to my complaints sympathetically, but don't expect me to listen to yours"?
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday January 29, @10:47PM EST (#4)
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To Lorianne and Collins:
I think you both misunderstood just slightly what this article was about. It wasn't JUST about marriages but about relationships ( of any level of intimacy) between men and women in general. Some of the reasons given for leaving a marriage were VERY petty, but if applied to say, a dating relationship, such reasons would be fine. People in those situations are just "testing the water" with each other.
Lorianne, men usually aren't the ones to initiate divorce. Perhaps this is because men are usually the only marital partner punished by the divorce. I don't claim to know why.
Remo
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I think you both misunderstood just slightly what this article was about. It wasn't JUST about marriages but about relationships ( of any level of intimacy) between men and women in general.
Thanks for pointing that out, Remo.
Hey, Lorianne, I think I'm going to nickname you "Bad Penny." :)
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To Remo:
I actually didn't read the askmen.com article. I was primarily responding to Lorianne's statement about her uncertainty re who is more likely to file for divorce.
Collins
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday January 30, @12:07AM EST (#7)
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Maybe men don't initiate the divorce as much as women do because they're afraid to lose their children and never see them again like so many divorced men.
That's my reason for never having children.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday January 30, @03:32AM EST (#8)
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There might be another reason besides kids. Try the following test: tell a group of your friends something like "did you know that 70% of the divorces in America are initiated by men?"
See what reasons they come up with.
Then try this: "Oops, I meant women. 70% of divorces are initiated by _women_."
See what reasons they come up with this time.
My experience is that it's always the men who are to blame, no matter which way the data goes -- either they go chasing for younger women and initiate the divorce, or treat their wives so badly the wives want out.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday January 30, @01:20PM EST (#11)
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My experience is that it's always the men who are to blame, no matter which way the data goes -- either they go chasing for younger women and initiate the divorce, or treat their wives so badly the wives want out.
Someone already conducted the experiment you propose. You're half right.
In his online book, "If Men Have all the Power Why do Women Make the Rules", Jack Kammer (author of "Good Will Toward's Men") describes an experiment where he presented opposite scenareo's to two coed groups at a university near Baltimore. One group was told that men initiate 75% of all divorces. 88% of the men and 86% of the women in this group blamed the man. The other group was told that women initiate 75% of all divorces. 25% of the men and 86% of the women in this group blamed the man.
In other words, men blamed the person who they thought initiated the divorce. Women simply blamed the man regardless of the circumstances or data.
If this isn't telling, I don't know what is.
Shawn Larsen
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In other words, men blamed the person who they thought initiated the divorce. Women simply blamed the man regardless of the circumstances or data.
If this isn't telling, I don't know what is.
Great insight, Shawn. Thanks.
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It is true that women are more likely than men in the U.S. to initiate divorce, especially when children are involved (60-70% of divorces are initiated by women, I believe.)
I am seriously wondering if this has any connection to the statistical fact that 56% of all pregnancies are unplanned (and therefore unwanted) on the part of the father. Married people have a horrendous habit of having sex without using any birth control. If an accident happens, the husband wants an abortion and the wife doesn't, isn't it better that she divorce him? Even if C4M allowed him to sign away his rights, is it really healthy to force the kid to live in the same house with a father who despises him and didn't want him born? I don't think so. Plus, the woman can remarry after the divorce, and possibly provide the kid with someone he can call "Dad."
Sure, we can say the woman should abort, but they won't always do that. If the husband doesn't want the kid and she refuses to abort, divorce is the best option for all parties. If you want to argue that the ex-husband shouldn't have to pay child support, that's fine. Divorce is still the best option next to abortion.
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If there were no such thing as child support, I think we'd see divorce initiations where minor children are involved balance out OR be skewed towards males. The reason why many men stay in marriages where kids are involved, when they don't want the kids, is because they figure it's cheaper than child support.
Again, this is damaging to the kids. It is not healthy for them to live with a parent who despises them.
If there were no child support, a husband faced with an oopsie and a wife who refuses to abort could file for divorce and never even LOOK at the brat, let alone pay for its upkeep. I know I'd file for divorce if I were in this situation and knew I could get out.
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To Claire4Liberty:
I didn't come away from Sanford Braver's '99 book "Divorced Dads - Shattering the Myths" with a sense that unplanned pregnancies accounted for a somewhat greater likelihood of women initiating divorces than in marriages where there were no children involved. I don't think that men not wanting the kid is what explains the difference. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure there is a dramatic difference. Also, I wouldn't assume that all unplanned pregnancies mean unwanted kids. That is, I imagine there are couples who have unplannned pregnancies but want the child anyway and carry the pregnancy to term. And it isn't always the man who wants to abort, with the woman wanting to keep the kid. Sometimes it's the other way around.
Please look into Braver's book. It's quite interesting and enlightening. Incidentally, he began his research believing that women were financially disadvantaged by divorce compared to men, but changed his outlook as the evidence unfolded.
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That whole article is nonsense. If you affer to make people famous, even vicariously, they will tell you what you want to hear.
I think people leave relationships primarily because they simply want to leave.
Paul Simon wrote a song about the 50 ways to leave your lover. His point being that you don't need a reason to leave, and you are not obligated to furnish one.
The right to freedom of association is a formidable aknowledgement of this reality.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday January 30, @12:18PM EST (#10)
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Living in a major city and being involved in finding a full time companion has lead me to believe that many woman are simply out of their respective minds.
They demand us to be docile co-workers that lack any masculine characteristics until they want us to "turn it on" at their convenience to fulfill some unrealistic romantic notion of being swept off their feet, but still sensitive to their every need while they do not take much interest in a man's needs as they assume sex will cover it all for them, and have been conditioned into thinking that if a man talks about himself -this is a bad trait....while they blather on about whatever...
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday January 30, @02:37PM EST (#13)
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"Living in a major city and being involved in finding a full time companion has lead me to believe that many woman are simply out of their respective minds."
As opposed to a part-time companion? Have you ever considered just buying a pet?
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