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How could a nine-year-old THINK of such a thing? My GOD! In this case gender doesn't matter, as she's young. (according to our wonderful *sarcasm* legal system.)
The story didn't say whether the father lived with the mother and girl or not. If he doesn't (which I'm presuming), it's easy to see where the little girl faltered. Mom didn't care, and Dad wasn't there, and all hell broke loose.
"Female men's activist" is not an oxymoron.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday January 13, @08:56PM EST (#2)
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Its simple.
Children, esp. older children play sex-games such as "doctor", all the time. It must also be understood that issues of consent and danger often don't enter their minds at such ages.
Unless we are sure of precisely what happened, I say we view this calmly and rationally. The degree of trauma can easily be increased if panic or denial ( of childrens sexuality between each other) is the response. Really, dispite the adults response to the situation we have to consider the childrens responses. Assuming something happened, where they hurt? How can we best help them? And how can we best help the nine year old girl, and teach her appropriate limits to any experimentation she might be doing?
Last, but not least check out the parents. Touching, and playing doctor is normal, even some mastubalitory play -- but full-blown sex at that age suggests neglect or worse.
Remo
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Remo, I'm much with you on this. This type of thing is often blown up hysterically, especially in the US. Often this does far more damage than that (if any) done by the original act.
As you say, sex play is common in children, though we (as a society) have usually beaten it out by the time they're 9. I'm not entirely sure attempted intercourse at that age is pathological. If they know about it (and why shouldn't they) it's quite possible they'd try.
The age gap is worrying, though.
One day I found my 2 yo son on the front porch with his friend, the 2yo girl from next door. They had their pants down and were comparing notes. Should I have called the cops? we've got indecent exposure there at least...
I just whistled and they looked embarassed and stopped.
sd
Those who like this sort of thing
will find this the sort of thing they like.
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When I was in the 2nd grade, I "compared notes" more than a couple of times with this girl I knew. I suppose they'd like to have locked the both of us up? Sex play goes on between juveniles all the time and has for aeons. I think one of the main problems here is that parents tend to view their children as chattel, and when they discover sexuality in them, they go nuts. It's like their children become a target for their egos, an excuse to behave in whatever outrageous fasion they desire in the name of "protecting" them.
My mother sure as hell did. Playing doctor was exciting and not even remotely upsetting to either this girl or to myself, as we did it willingly. However, the hot-lamp interrogation I got when my mother discovered what we had been doing sure was. She seethed anger at me for the rest of the day, which is very upsetting when you're that young. I felt the tense stress of a young boy whose parent(s) is/are acting hatefully towards him. She also threatened to tell the girl's mother and have us permanently separated, which would have meant the loss of a good friend, and possible hatred by her parents (which was also upsetting since I liked them).
Later, she would search my room when I was out. One day she found a sex story on a printout I had, and grilled me about it for half an hour. I was eleven at the time. You know, one of the worst ages to have something like that discovered, at the beginning of the phase everyone goes through in which they must define what will eventually become their adult sexuality, for themselves. The embarrassment was hellish. Interference by a powerful adult who has veto power over your entire life is emotionally disturbing.
Again, this is a symptom of parents treating their children like property. Although I am civil to her, I will never be especially close to her. I think she has realized in recent years just how horribly she screwed up, but how do you apologize to someone for so huge and damaging a transgression?
In any case, I require no apology. I have used self-help methods to understand and transcend these experiences. So while I don't feel close to her, I don't sit around thinking up reasons to hate her all day like I used to.
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a great example of the uptight puritanical self righteous attitude in our society. I have a feeling that this "sexual" predator will get a much more just treatment because she is female than if she was a 9 year old boy.
Anyone who studies human sexuality on any academic level quickly finds out this behavior is no where near pathological or criminal. As several people have mentioned this is NORMAL childhood exploration. If society disagrees with this behavior then the parents should teach proper behavior. (such as, " you should not touch other people there and noone should touch you there either.") To treat this child as a molester is going to create psychological scars that she will have to endure for the rest of her life.
The problem is if this molester was a boy he would be on CNN and front pages around the country. people would be wondering what is happening to our society and Women's groups would point to it as an example of how men are taught at a young age to treat women badly.
FYI: Common knowledge among sex researchers and therapists is that the most common type of incest is brother sister AND no psychological damage results in most cases unless the event is discovered and they are humiliated.
Tony H
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I think you hit the nail on the head, Tony. Contrary to popular belief, the physiology of the human body doesn't always heed arbitrary "stages of life" set by society, which define the age at which sexuality becomes acceptable. If I would have been thrown in a juvenile detention center every time I got sexually curious with others as a child (albiet not to this extreme), I would be seriously screwed up. Sometimes the laws are more damaging than the acts themselves.
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That was a visceral reaction (my earlier post). Now that I think about it, kids will be kids, even if it is "comparing notes". *teehee*
I didn't know how to react. Honest.
"Female men's activist" is not an oxymoron.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday January 13, @10:10PM EST (#3)
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What's your point?
It's not like there's female children going around sexually assaulting other kids all over the place.
I don't know why she should be desribed as a "budding Neo - feminist".
Feminists are hardly what you'd call sex offenders. Seems like some people need to divert attention away from the ones who most often commit sex crimes.
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"What's your point?
It's not like there's female children going around sexually assaulting other kids all over the place.
I don't know why she should be desribed as a "budding Neo-feminist".
Feminists are hardly what you'd call sex offenders. Seems like some people need to divert attention away from the ones who most often commit sex crimes."
Why don't you leave a name?
You need your beets -- you recycle, recycle!
Don't eat your beets -- recycle, recycle!
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>Feminists are hardly what you'd call sex >offenders.
I agree; I'm not sure that a consistant causative association between a feminist and a sex offender exists (that being a sex offender causes one to become a feminist).
>Seems like some people need to divert attention >away from the ones who most often commit sex >crimes.
I'm assuming this was written with a sarcastic tone. On that premise, It seems that you promote ignoring crimes and other social ills whenever they were committed by someone who doesn't fit the stereotype. Is this what they teach in your gender studies classes? Ignore that which you wish not to exist? Silly.
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by Anonymous User on Monday January 14, @12:33AM EST (#7)
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It's sarcasm - she's a budding neo-feminist because she's breaking down gender walls, just as the post says. So a neo-feminist breaks down gender walls. It's sarcasm, and commentary, because it pokes fun at the idea that rape and sexual assault are something only men do. It further comments that because she is doing something "only men are allowed to do", that she is a neo-feminist.
Most people don't need this explained.
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I think there has been a breakdown in communication. Too many people are replying as "anonymous user" and not leaving a name, and with all this sarcasm, it is impossible to discern who is replying to who.
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by Anonymous User on Monday January 14, @02:38AM EST (#12)
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You're right, Hobbes. At first I was going to respond to anonymous #2, thinking that anonymous #2 was anonymous #1 responding to your response to anonymous #1, but then I thought, no, anonymous #2 is poster #1 (Luek) in disguise, responding to anonymous #1 rather than to you, and thus, since neither anonymous #1 or anonymous #2 were responding to your response to anonymous #1's response to poster #1, it looks like I (anonymous #3) don't need to respond to anonymous #1 or anonymous #2. Good. I wasn't in the mood anyway.
Marc
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Andrea Dworkin and her followers define female pedophilia with girls as mentoring and not molestation. Other feminists follow in their lead. Feminism per se is not entirely clean of NAMBLA type thinking.
Greg
the Volksgaren Project: Intelligent Abuse Recovery, http://clix.to/support/, jaxom@amtelecom.net, 519-773-9644
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by Anonymous User on Monday January 14, @09:22AM EST (#14)
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Anyone remember the whole "Warren Farrel promotes incest" fiasco? I think we're in danger of creating another one about men's activists, judging from the posts here. I bet Liz Kates' would love to add them to her web site.
Even if you don't believe brother/sister sex play is anything to be concerned about, I don't think it's a good idea to publicly talk about it this way, because it would be so easy for our enemies to take these posts out of context (or even in context, to some extent) and slander us.
T.
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My main concern is that this girl was nine, while her victims were three, four and five years of age. It is not normal for a nine-year-old to perform sex play with a three-year-old. Sex play generally happens between children of the same age.
Someone else said that "a man might be blamed" for this. Unfortunately, reality dictates this might be the case. I am convinced that this girl, like almost all kids who do things like this, was molested herself. Someone taught her to do this, and that someone might or might not have been a man. We don't know.
The way I look at this is that an adult is likely to blame. Hopefully this girl can be salvaged, though since she's already come this far, the only solution might be to lock her up forever in a place where she can't hurt anyone else. The sad reality is that she might not be curable.
If an adult turned her into an incurable molester, I want to see that adult locked up forever too.
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by Anonymous User on Monday January 14, @08:39PM EST (#18)
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Hopefully this girl can be salvaged, though since she's already come this far, the only solution might be to lock her up forever in a place where she can't hurt anyone else. The sad reality is that she might not be curable.
If an adult turned her into an incurable molester, I want to see that adult locked up forever too.
An "incurable molester" at nine? Give me a break. Sounds hysterical to me. How easy it is to judge when we have so few facts. Claire, for the first time I'm disappointed in you.
Remo
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I sincerely hope that you are 100% right, and I am 100% wrong. I would hate to see a nine-year-old be sentenced to a life in psychiatric confinement because of something I am certain an adult taught her to do.
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So we should lie? I don't think so. This NEEDS to be talked about publicly. Read my post, above, about being discovered and then given the third degree.
We must not cower in fear that our opponents (the Dworkinites and other irresponsible infinite-freedom-zero-responsibility types) will twist what we say. If you're going to worry about that all the time, you may as well not say anything at all and fade into obscurity!
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So we should lie? I don't think so. This NEEDS to be talked about publicly. Read my post, above, about being discovered and then given the third degree.
No, we shouldn't lie and we shouldn't ignore the issue. I think what "T" was getting at is that some of the posts on this thread seemed to come out in support of or belittle the seriousness of this little girl's actions, even though the story makes it fairly clear that she was doing more than "playing doctor" or "comparing notes." Putting thought into how you phrase what you say is not the same thing as censoring yourself.
As I said before, I'm NOT in favor of the use of the legal system for either boys or girls in these situations (I think parenting should prevail here), but I also don't think what this girl allegedly did is in any way natural for a 9-year-old, a 5-year-old, and a 3-year-old.
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is still greatly ignored by the gender feminist and our legal system, dispite victims reports showing women commit at least half of the child sexual abuse in this country.
This case reeks of exposure to some sort of abuse. Simple things like exposure to pronographic material, sharing sleeping quarters with mom to mom fondling child or placing her with other abused children or an adult abuser, could explain this behavior.
One can not ignore the absence of a father in the home, putting this child into the highest risk catagory for all types of abuse.
Much more focus on female pedophilia is a must if we are to stop the cycles of abuse. This includes rounding up and databasing the whereabouts of these women in the same fashion men are. The witch hunts will not stop until women are victimized to the extent men continue to be.
What can be expected in this case is one of two things. 1) a man will be found to blame for the childs behavior. 2) It will be swept under the carpet like most female abuse.
The Neo (Nutcase) feminists have already labled mens rights as some sort of pervert movement. Which is one reason why I've choosen to focus on female abuse whenever it's reported. Many single mothers and rabid gender feminist fit the profile of a child abuser. Which clearly explains why they wish to ignore it.
When there is no abuser database or one that contains 52% women, we will be on the right track.
Dan Curry
DanCurry.Com
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A lot has been said here about what normal childish behavior is and there have been implications of what prudes we've been when it comes to getting so excited about these things. For the most part, I agree: this story may be nothing more than kids "comparing notes." The story implied something different to me though, where it indicates that the 9 y.o. girl encouraged as sex act (of indeterminant description) among the younger children. For a 9 y.o. girl and a 9 y.o. boy to get together and compare notes is one thing; for the girl in question to encourage the younger set to "play" is another.
But the key here is that this story is yet another that demonstrates that boys and men are no the only perpetrators of sexual misbehavior. It is important for that reason, but really for that reason only.
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A lot has been said here about what normal childish behavior is and there have been implications of what prudes we've been when it comes to getting so excited about these things. For the most part, I agree: this story may be nothing more than kids "comparing notes." The story implied something different to me though, where it indicates that the 9 y.o. girl encouraged as sex act (of indeterminant description) among the younger children. For a 9 y.o. girl and a 9 y.o. boy to get together and compare notes is one thing; for the girl in question to encourage the younger set to "play" is another.
Excellent point, Frank. I think there is quite a bit of difference between "comparing notes" as a child and actually engaging in the sexual act, of which the 9-year-old is accused (with a 3-year-old, no less!). No child should be put in that position, by either an adult or another child.
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by Anonymous User on Monday January 14, @10:11PM EST (#21)
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Excellent point, Frank. I think there is quite a bit of difference between "comparing notes" as a child and actually engaging in the sexual act, of which the 9-year-old is accused (with a 3-year-old, no less!). No child should be put in that position, by either an adult or another child
But other children often don't know that. They are not that capable of moral judgments having no experience, and being unable to think abstractly.Lets stop holding kids to adult standards. The girl was wrong -- lets TEACH her, and move on.
Remo
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But other children often don't know that. They are not that capable of moral judgments having no experience, and being unable to think abstractly.Lets stop holding kids to adult standards. The girl was wrong -- lets TEACH her, and move on.
Sure, I understand that. I don't think the legal system is the proper place to handle this situation, whether the 9-year-old was a girl or a boy. I think *parenting* should be the proper way to handle it.
At the same time, I was aware of sex and sexuality at 9, thanks to older kids who could talk about nothing else, IIRC. I certainly can't see into that little girl's head, but I'm betting she knew what she was doing was wrong.
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