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From: "Donald"
To:
Cc:
Subject: A new model of masculinity
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 18:06:20 -0500
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A BOSTON GLOBE EDITORIAL
By Ellen Goodman, 1/3/2002
Re:
"Meanwhile, the current portraits of masculinity are not all heroic. In Afghanistan, protection of women was a protection racket. Their segregated society was nothing if not old-fashioned. The Taliban were nightmare patriarchs; men were men and women wore burkas."
The Taliban were drug lords, gang leaders, lunatics and psychos.
Since when is gansterism synonymous with masculinity?
Why would you be so hateful as to do that?
Why would you twist the facts so deliberately and into such and ugly misandrist shape?
Have you no respect for younger or more impressionable readers?
Have you no respect for yourself?
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From: "Donald" dwc3@sympatico.ca
To: ellengoodman@globe.com
Cc: letter@globe.com
Subject: A new model of masculinity
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 18:06:20 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C19613.ADA9406 0"
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This is accurate. It appears that Ellen Goodman, like Judy Mann, wants to isolate some irreducible element of masculinity in terrorism. She seems frustrated by positive male images in the media that suggest that men have internalized and accepted the notion of gender equality, and finds solace in the examples of the Taliban and the distortion that powerful men are needed to pretect us from "powerful men".
The word "powerful" is used in at least two distinct senses here: in the case of terrorist hijackers, it refers to men managed to intimidate the passengers and crew of an airplane with box cutters; in the case of the passengers, it refers to men who eventually foiled the hijackers, but not without dying in the process.
Again, we can apply the subsitution test to her statements to uncover their misantrist intent: imagine asserting, "We need powerful Hispanics to protect us from ... powerful Hispanics." This is the lesson we're supposed to walk away with from the events of September 11th--another cult-feminist attempt to expoit those tragic events for an ideological platform.
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Pardon my typos--the inevitable result of too fast typing and impatience.
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by Marc Angelucci on Saturday January 05, @09:09PM EST (#7)
(User #61 Info)
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I don't know which is worse, the misandrist who villifies men for protecting women, or the misandrist who villifies men for not protecting women.
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"There is a more subtle understanding of men and power these days. Power is as power does."
She calls this "sound byte" subtle, oh lord.
"But what does the composite model of masculinity that is emerging out of the national chat rooms look like now? "
Chat rooms! she is putting gossip and anonymous fanatsy sharing on a pedistal. For all she knows half the members are homosexual men.
"It's a man who is strong but not silent, who can open the door for a woman and work under her, make war on the enemy and make dinner for the family. And we used to ask if women could have it all."
Hell, men were doing this in the old west films.
She is not a thoughtful writer, she is putting this down as it comes to her. Men had been doing laundry and cooking in the old west as a matter of course, with no thought to needing a woman. Sailing the high seas where women were just plain bad luck. Men can go just as long without sex as can women. Hollywood threw her a myth and she swallowed it whole.
Men still aren't angry with equal opportunity we are angry with the things we have always been angry with - loss of freedom and injustice.
I agree with you Mars, she sounds frustrated.
She views men as a collection of charicatures, moments from commercials or trailers to films.
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This woman shows up in my local newspaper, the Times of Trenton (if you can call it a newspaper) every week, and I rarely, if ever, finish reading her column to the end. I think this may be as close as she ever gets to saying something positive about men. I think I recall her mentioning a husband one time. Pity the fool! But then, this is Boston, MA, quite probably the worst state to live in if you happen to be a male.
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Boston, MA, quite probably the worst state to live in if you happen to be a male. I agree.
My wife's been wanting to visit Boston, but I won't go. I've got family in Connecticut and I'd like to visit them and then take a trip to Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine next autumn. If we do that, we'll buy gas just before we enter Massachusetts. All the good people of Massachusetts will get from us is our auto pollution.
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Are you saying then that this woman gives new meaning to the gender feminist "movement"?
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Hi Thomas,
Funny you should mention this, I was just in Boston for most of the day today. I also lived in Boston for a couple of years, and there was where I read Warren Farrell's books which sparked my interest in becoming an activist for men's rights.
Really, the people of Boston or Massachusetts aren't that bad! (I know you must have meant this tongue-in-cheek to some extent). I would say that the high concentration of academic institutions in Boston and Cambridge are the main reason the local media are so profeminist.
That, and maybe there's something in the water... :)
Scott
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I hope I didn't give anyone the impression that I don't like MA, or Boston as a destination for tourism, but I do notice a marked incidence of anti-male policies and laws eminating from there. So, while I might be willing to visit, as a male, I certainly would not choose to live there.
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I have been known to walk out of a theatre in the middle of a show.
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"Pity the fool! But then, this is Boston, MA, quite probably the worst state to live in if you happen to be a male."
Sorry frank, but MA doesn't hold a candle to Ontario when it comes to feminist strongholds. When you have Katherine McKinnon advising your legal experts, you know that you, as a man, are in trouble!
It is interesting to note that, considering all this talk about Boston, Askmen.com would rate it as the best American city for men.
You need your beets -- you recycle, recycle!
Don't eat your beets -- recycle, recycle!
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...even though Ontario isn't a state.
You need your beets -- you recycle, recycle!
Don't eat your beets -- recycle, recycle!
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If there's any consolation we can take regarding Ellen Goodman and her endlessly bitter, gratingly sarcastic, glass-always-half-empty commentary is that the last name she ended up with (by marriage, mind you) is proof positive that God does have a sense of humor!
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"Those images of strong and silent heroic hunks ignored the women rescue workers."
Hmm, maybe we focused in on the male rescue workers because THEY MADE UP THE VAST MAJORITY!!
They were the ones who suffered the most deaths, and they are mainly the ones who are still there to this day -- cleaning up and digging around.
I'm so sick of this femi-speak. They want us to give equal praise to female rescue workers at the expense of men. Of course the women firefighters and police officers (and others) should get equal praise, but only on an individual level. On a collective level, men deserve most of the praise and honour.
According to their own line of reasoning then (and let me use their false statistics), the 5 % of males who are abused by their partners should get equal sympathy and services from the government and shelters. But this doesn't happen, of course. For radical feminists, the small number of men being battered (again, according to their false stats) makes any focus on female violence insignificant.
Heck, if you are going to maximize the heroism of women at Ground Zero, then you must maximize the suffering of men at home (assuming that men make up only a small fraction of DV victims -- which we know is utterly false).
You need your beets -- you recycle, recycle!
Don't eat your beets -- recycle, recycle!
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Has she been paying attention to herself lately?
My 2 cents as a female: A lot of women really, really like masculine men, romance novels, and romantic flicks (mine is only the first one, but my mom LOVES anything w/Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan in it, in addition to bodice-rippers). It's a fantasy trip, away from danger, the hassle of modern living, and, most importantly, the constant harping of gender feminists. LOL Thus the idealism the author complains about. As for Hugh Jackman, he was excellent as Wolverine in the X-Men movie...maybe he'll do a good Leopold.
And,I, too, am sick of gender feminists using the analogy of the Taliban for their own agenda. The Taliban wasn't a patriarchy- it was a bunch of sickos and nutcases. A real example of a "patriarchy", if there exists such a thing according to feminist definition, is Japan. But look how well they're doing! Very peaceful! (And the media there, which some Americans may term 'sexist', I take to be psychologically truthful [I'm an anime/manga freak].) In my personal opinion, if a society were matriarchal, it'd be CRAZIER than the Taliban. :)
"Female men's activist" is not an oxymoron.
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A real example of a "patriarchy", if there exists such a thing according to feminist definition, is Japan. But look how well they're doing! Very peaceful! (And the media there, which some Americans may term 'sexist', I take to be psychologically truthful [I'm an anime/manga freak].)
I don't consider Japan even close to a "patriarchy" because in Japan men rule the public life of a family and the women rule the private life of a family. Now which does one spend more time in? Also, husbands are expected too give all of their earnings to their wife and she uses it to pay the bills and stuff, and then gives the husband an allowance from his own pay check.
When most feminists say "patriarchy" they actually mean ogliarchy (not sure if thats the correct spelling, and I coulnd't find it).
PS. I didn't mean for that to sound like a rant directed to you LR.
PSS. LR, I'm a HUGE anime/manga freak myself. :)
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I don't consider Japan even close to a "patriarchy" because in Japan men rule the public life of a family and the women rule the private life of a family.
There was an article on MSNBC.com a few months ago indicating that older males in Japan are now the target of derision, being blamed for problems in Japanese economy.
For instance, in Japan it is no longer cool to slurp your soup (this was the point of the article), because that's the way the older males do it.
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For instance, in Japan it is no longer cool to slurp your soup (this was the point of the article), because that's the way the older males do it.
OT
Really? hmm...Maybe MSNBC needs to learn a little bit more about Japanese culture. Slurping one's soup is done by EVERYBODY, not just older men. The Japanese believe that it increases the taste of the food. Also, its an insult not to slurp, since slurping also means your enjoying the food. I, for one, must agree. :p
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Really? hmm...Maybe MSNBC needs to learn a little bit more about Japanese culture. Slurping one's soup is done by EVERYBODY, not just older men. The Japanese believe that it increases the taste of the food. Also, its an insult not to slurp, since slurping also means your enjoying the food. I, for one, must agree. :p
That was the point of the article, though. Slurping soup has apparently become passe because it's a tradition passed down, and held onto, by older men.
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I think you meant oligarchy.
oligarchy n.
( pl. -ies)
1 government by a small group of people.
2 a state governed in this way.
3 the members of such a government.
Derivative
oligarchic adj.
oligarchical adj.
oligarchically adv.[F oligarchie or med.L oligarchia f. Gk oligarkhia (as oligarch)]
The Oxford English Reference Dictionary, © Oxford University Press 1996
zerostress
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Holly smoke I thought Oligarchy was rule by the rich.
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Whenever I (lacking something better to do) read an Ellen Goodman column, I invariably come away amazed at how difficult it is for her to show any sort of bilateral thinking with regard to gender. I long ago abandoned hope that she'll ever "get it".
Her whining about women rescue workers being ignored leapt out at me, for just the same reason and irony that AFG brings forth in his excellent post. To be sure, whenever Ms. Goodman has written on the subject of domestic violence, she has shown not the slightest problem in ignoring male victims. She's really quite the sexist jerk, when you think about it.
Thanks, AFG, for nailing it.
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"Her whining about women rescue workers being ignored leapt out at me, for just the same reason and irony that AFG brings forth in his excellent post. To be sure, whenever Ms. Goodman has written on the subject of domestic violence, she has shown
not the slightest problem in ignoring male victims. She's really quite the sexist jerk, when you think about it.
Thanks, AFG, for nailing it."
Thanks for your kind words. Informative site, by the way.
You need your beets -- you recycle, recycle!
Don't eat your beets -- recycle, recycle!
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This is a frivolous woman, she clearly has no respect for herself (no sense of shame) so she is incapable of showing respect or compassion for others.
In my humble opinion, women have been the most vicious and unconsionable manipulators and opressors of other women.
Men just didn't spend a whole lot of time with them, or did we all suddenly forget Henry Ford and the birth control pill.
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Gender feminists have always demanded inclusion for women and refused inclusion for men. They speak of including female rescue workers: They refuse categorically to include male victims of DV. They speak of including female soldiers and refuse to include custodial fathers. They speak of including female business leaders and refuse to include male healers. I could go on...
Gender feminists (of both genders) are bigots and hypocrits. They are a threat to our children and our society.
Greg
the Volksgaren Project: Intelligent Abuse Recovery, http://clix.to/support/, jaxom@amtelecom.net, 519-773-9644
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by Anonymous User on Sunday January 06, @12:07AM EST (#16)
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I'm man
a man I am.
That Ellen Goodman.
I do not like that Ellen Goodman!
I do not like her,
man o man.
I do not like that Ellen Goodman.
I would not like her here or there.
I would not like her anywhere.
I do not like Ellen Goodman.
I do not like her,
man o man.
Would you like her in your house?
I do not like her in my house.
I do not like her here or there.
I do not like her anywhere.
I do not like Ellen Goodman.
I do not like her, man o man.
Betsy Ross taught her how to sew.
She gives wart hogs dry heaves.
I'd rather watch Roseann Barr do a strip-tease.
She has breath like a wino
and chins like a rhino!
I do not like that Ellen Goodman.
I do not like her,
man o man.
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Gwan witchya.
She don't hold a candle to Toronto's own Michele Landsberg . Seriously, check out what she's on about this week.
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Donald, you mean she's back? I thought she stopped writing for a while.
You need your beets -- you recycle, recycle!
Don't eat your beets -- recycle, recycle!
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My mistake.
wishful thinking I guess ;-)
I think she can't be very well.
Her logical skills are way off.
(this assumes she had some to begin with)
I started writing a response to "Couldn't we build, not bomb, in Afghanistan?" 2001-11-11 02:00:05"
It spooked me as I started to go through it step by step.
Remember now this article is about building in contrast to bombing in Afghanistan
Michele Landsberg
STAR COLUMNIST
TODAY MARKS A double Remembrance Day; it is also the two-month anniversary of the World Trade Center catastrophe, and no one can be sanguine about where we are headed. After all these weeks of bombing and political posturing [ "bombing" here means explosives not appearing ridiculous in public], I still can't see what shape a "victory over terrorism" will take.
John Le Carré, the British author, writes in the current issue of The Nation that "the war is long lost. By us. What victory can we possibly achieve that matches the defeats we have already suffered, let alone the defeats that lie ahead?"
Indeed, the breadth and depth of the terrorist triumph [terrorist what?] was bitterly evident by Sept. 12. Thousands of lives were destroyed; the symbolic heart of capitalism reduced to rubble; stock markets reeling; tens of thousands of jobs wiped out and millions more imperilled[sic]; entire industries shaken to the core; long-cherished freedoms curbed in the name of the war against terror. It's Le Carré's theory, and that of many other war-resisters, that " we cannot prevent another suicide bomber being born each time a misdirected missile wipes out an innocent village." [this is a theory?]
The image that keeps coming to my mind, however inappropriately, is that of a gigantic global carnival game of Whack-A-Mole. Slam one terrorist into the ground, and up pop a dozen more, their desolate lives kindled with the pure fire of meaning by the drive for revenge and transcendence.
It only gets more confused as one reads.
She has been quite active despite her age :
2001-11-18 02:00:01 Tale of motherhood both alarms and delights
2001-11-17 02:00:00 Channel charitable impulses to women's fund
2001-11-11 02:00:05 Couldn't we build, not bomb, in Afghanistan?
2001-11-10 02:13:00 Play with all-female cast is a Dream come true
2001-11-04 02:01:00 Woman's story snuffed out by husband
2001-11-03 02:00:00 Witnesses warn trauma of Sept. 11 is not over
2001-10-28 02:40:00 Diverted by a fall garden's earthy delights
2001-10-27 02:13:00 Learn to be a zinester at Left Words Festival
2001-10-21 02:43:15 A legacy of meddling, nastiness and neglect
2001-10-20 02:00:00 Exotic dancers shouldn't be stripped of rights
2001-10-14 02:00:00 Unmasking bigotry behind the hysteria
2001-10-13 02:00:00 Group wins battle on behalf of assaulted women
2001-10-07 02:00:00 A post-Taliban Afghanistan must heed women
2001-10-06 02:00:00 Custody fight was about values, not race
2001-09-30 02:00:00 Get-tough policy can create problems
2001-09-29 02:00:00 Mr. Dress-Up was a friend to kids and parents
2001-09-23 02:07:32 Acts of horror sure to beget more of the same
2001-09-22 02:13:00 A revolutionary woman
2001-09-09 02:10:17 Caped crusaders help build a better world
2001-09-08 02:00:04 Universal literacy for three stories a day
2001-08-05 01:59:11 Children find haven from cancer fears at Magic Castle
2001-08-04 02:00:00 One throwaway `Jamaican's' sad real-life story
2001-07-29 02:00:00 Tories' anti-smoking silence speaks volumes
2001-07-28 02:00:00 Women here are fighting for Afghan sisters
2001-07-22 02:00:00 Overworked nurses are paying `hidden cost'
2001-07-21 02:00:00 Pink Tea a refreshing brew of music and rebellion
2001-07-15 02:00:00 Holocaust curriculum attack threatens progress
2001-07-14 02:00:01 `Sisters' cure loneliness at downtown drop-in centre
2001-07-08 01:30:00 Tight-fisted budgeting has hobbled home care
2001-07-07 02:00:00 Why is wife killer still allowed to see his children?
2001-07-01 02:00:00 U.N. recognizes women double victims of AIDS
2001-06-30 01:00:52 Ouch! I've taken another step in the wrong direction
2001-06-23 04:22:17 Sexual harassment is a crime - let's treat it like one
2001-06-17 02:00:55 No gratitude necessary for `drive-by mastectomy'
2001-06-16 02:00:00 Secret feminists fight tyranny of the Taliban
2001-06-10 01:30:00 Women's program a study in progress
2001-06-09 02:00:50 Game winners reveal their `inner Barbies'
2001-06-04 08:26:47 Bowing in gratitude to Nestle is nutty
2001-06-02 01:01:01 Heterosexual family life a source of smug pride
2001-05-27 01:43:26 Ignore the spin: That divorce settlement was unfair
2001-05-26 03:17:34 Be a babe in the woods and win a game
2001-05-20 00:49:00 Forged letter slights dignity of Nelson Mandela
2001-05-19 01:07:00 Tories take us for a ride in their `little red wagon'
2001-05-13 00:42:28 Future is bleak for Ontario's public schools
2001-05-12 01:01:00 Helping battered women is justice, not discrimination
2001-05-06 00:25:35 Plight of `incorrigible' women demands justice
2001-05-05 01:45:28 Mothers and others entertained for good cause
2001-04-29 01:01:00 Iran's plan to revive smear against Israel is sick
2001-04-28 01:05:00 Gardening books help me spring into action
2001-04-22 01:10:15 What's that smell? Tory education policy
2001-04-21 03:31:15 Save some wrath for society that failed baby Jordan
2001-04-15 01:01:00 Youth breathes new life into the old left
2001-04-14 01:01:00 Rabble.ca may rouse us from torpor
2001-04-08 01:00:00 The play's the thing in school's Shakespeare club
2001-02-03 23:17:15 Porn law loopholes an affront to children's dignity
2001-02-02 12:05:58 Life is a feminist cabaret, old chum
2001-01-28 00:02:52 Green groups lose, but golf greens gain in On-tory-o
2001-01-25 06:42:16 Breast-feeding a human right for mom, baby
2001-01-20 23:52:19 Assault line needs to serve whole province
2001-01-13 23:19:45 Women's group seeks to stop girl's terrible ordeal
2001-01-11 04:51:03 Women missing from Mideast peace negotiations
2001-01-07 00:14:56 Canadian Muslims could help prevent a tragedy
2001-01-04 20:43:47 Gender analysis helps eliminate budget bias
2000-12-24 00:09:10 The real books of love: How recipes reveal history
2000-12-21 05:22:31 Rape crisis centre in B.C. endures assault
2000-12-17 00:01:51 Finally, a fresh look at the Inuit experience
2000-12-10 00:13:31 `Family values' a myth of suburban '50s
2000-12-07 04:25:44 Vibrant Val Ward was an avant-gardener
2000-12-03 02:17:28 Why it's time to make everyone's vote count
2000-11-30 03:43:47 Wild Women are anti-violence road warriors
2000-11-26 00:56:49 Global interests wait in health-care wings
2000-11-23 03:48:37 Refugee's story has a happy ending - finally
2000-11-19 00:33:59 Want to make your vote count? Ignore the polls
2000-11-19 00:33:59 Want to make your vote count? Ignore the polls
2000-11-16 20:46:38 Vagina Monologues come to town - there, I said it
2000-11-11 23:28:17 How long have we really come on women's equity?
2000-11-04 23:34:53 Hitting the right note has never been so liberating
2000-10-28 23:32:10 Your tax dollars at work . . . for Harris government
2000-10-27 05:25:13 Garden helps community to blossom
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Great poem anon! Enjoyed it. LOL
Goodman and Landsberg are Female chauvanists. I think bringing that term into general usage can be helpful. It fits. We need to approach the point where they have to strive to not be chauvanistic like we men had to do in the 70's and on.
Appreciate you all nailing them as you have done.
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I love it! This is great work: Humour at its best. Keep up the good stuff.
Landsberg is aas bad: So is Michael Kimmel. Bigots come in both genders.
Greg
the Volksgaren Project: Intelligent Abuse Recovery, http://clix.to/support/, jaxom@amtelecom.net, 519-773-9644
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by Anonymous User on Sunday January 06, @12:22PM EST (#29)
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I live in Cambridge MA (to some of you may think this like living in hell). But for many reasons, MA really is a great place to live.
The way I see it is that one of the biggest problems with MA (but still just one of many...) is the Department of Social Services, which is run by Marxist Feminists. The impact that this partisan PUBLICly funded institution has on legislature is enormous. The DSS is above the law and judicial process in the manner that it handles domestic issues. Men are treated as the "problem" and DSS does it's best in dissolving fathers from their families. I know several people that work for DSS. They are some on the most sexist people that you could ever imagine; yet they are paid "professionals" by the state that wage war on men.
The media is ultra left, and it supports the party line at all costs. And the Academic institutions have large and well funded feminist and cultural studies departments that deconstruct every aspect of society and history as a simplistic power dynamic of oppression at the hands white men.
So, there is a strong infrastructure of ideological liberalism here in MA.
I assure you that there are a lot of people in MA (I think 30%) that voted republican, and a lot of moderate individuals do not agree with the quasi-socialist state MA has become. It's just hard to effect change with a deeply entrenched liberal culture with a liberal majority.
The logical place to start a change is on college campuses. There has to be a restoration of freethinking. Feminism and political correctness needs to be re-examined in a non-partisan way, and the respect for free thinking and true "diversity" of opinion needs to get restored.
Young men (and women - but they are allowed to say whatever they want anyway) need to speak out against issues like misnadry without fear of being "labeled" as a hater, or sexist, or racist... This how the liberal dynamic wins. One isn't "allowed" to question a topic of social concern without being labeled and silenced (as we recently saw happen to CH Sommers)
I digress... MA really isn't all bad. Culturally it has a lot more to offer than most states do, this is why I like it (plus New England is a great part of the country)
Ched (CJ)
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Regarding travel to Massachusetts...
I was being facetious about traveling *through* but not *to* Massachusetts only to the extent that a one-person boycott will have very little effect. It's become clear to me, over the last few years, that Massachusetts is an epicenter of government sponsored anti-male discrimination. Ched does a good job of summarizing what I have learned about the state.
I'm sure there are many good people in Massachusetts, just as there are certainly many good people working for British Air and Ford Motor Company. My wife and I are deciding where to go on our next vacation. The two trips we’ve considered are New England in the autumn and France in spring. If we go to France, and British Air has the cheapest tickets, we’ll pay more to fly on another airline or, if we can’t afford that, we’ll go to New England and not spend money in Massachusetts. (British Air has a policy of not allowing men to sit next to unaccompanied children. If they're given such a seating arrangement, the men are *asked* to move, and I'd bet they'd better not refuse.) I’d just as soon skip Massachusetts entirely, save the money on gas and not create any auto pollution, but, unfortunately, the state lies between Connecticut and Vermont/New Hampshire. (Maybe we’ll drive up through the Catskills and Adirondacks.) In addition, a friend of mine was about to buy a new Ford pickup about three months ago. After I told him about the evidence of Ford’s discrimination against older, white men, he decided to buy a pickup from another company.
Without a formal boycott, these are negligible matters to large companies or to a state like Massachusetts. Nevertheless, I have no desire to support misandrist states or companies. I’m no longer sure of the details of the following story, but it basically goes like this… A few years ago, Colorado passed a referendum that many people felt discriminated against gays. There was a lot of talk about boycotting the state. Seems to me, there was a boycott for a while. People who had their minds made up on either side of the issue became more entrenched as a result, but the majority of people didn’t have their egos involved in it and most turned against the law.
If and when the men’s movement becomes powerful enough to mount effective boycotts, we will have to consider doing so against companies that have some good people as employees and states that have some good people as residents. Until that time, I won’t give my business to the likes of Ford (I’m personally not satisfied with their recent settlement), British Air or Massachusetts. (And, for the record, I’m not advocating murdering anyone.)
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by Anonymous User on Sunday January 06, @02:14PM EST (#31)
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On this link Askmen.com rates New York as the best city in the country in which to live. Maybe in another survey they rated Boston the best city in the country, but note the standards they use for this survey -- "nightlife, standard of living, job sector, arts and culture, weather, state of affairs, and all of the other things that encompass daily life." While these are important matters, Askmen.com doesn't mention men's issues such as the right to spend time with the children whom one is supporting.
Sorry frank, but MA doesn't hold a candle to Ontario when it comes to feminist strongholds. When you have Katherine McKinnon advising your legal experts, you know that you, as a man, are in trouble! Ontario definitely rates right up there as a misandrist bastion.
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"Ontario definitely rates right up there as a misandrist bastion."
Truly a misandrist infestation.
The survey I was talking about was with regards to men's health.
You need your beets -- you recycle, recycle!
Don't eat your beets -- recycle, recycle!
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Can you provide me with some links to information about this Katherine MacKinnon?
Thanks
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Here is what I can provide you for now (I'll try to post more later):
Senator Anne Cools (a truly wonderful woman) informed the Canadian Senate that "Catharine MacKinnon, a gyno-centric feminist, postulates that man-woman sexual relations are abhorrent because they violate women, and that in a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape. MacKinnon helped to craft sexual assault laws in Canada. This gender feminist ideology has driven much law in Canada, and consequently has driven much injustice. It has ravaged law, justice, many careers, and many human lives. It worked for many years. It was even lucrative. It resulted in positions, jobs, grants, and even appointments to the bench. It created a terrible silence as it inflicted obvious injustices on many. It was buttressed by feminist terrorism and aggression, ready to pursue to destruction anyone who gets in its way, while chanting its mantra that all evil and violence are men's, and that all goodness, virtue, and truth are women's."
You need your beets -- you recycle, recycle!
Don't eat your beets -- recycle, recycle!
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Here is one link:
http://www.cddc.vt.edu/feminism/MacKinnon.html
Here is another:
http://www.spectacle.org/1195/mack.html
You need your beets -- you recycle, recycle!
Don't eat your beets -- recycle, recycle!
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Two things I'd mention:
The lines at theaters to see this movie are lines of women and girls. The majority of women and girls embrace this notion of men, and want men to be honorable, brave, confident, and strong. Most women want a man to sweep them off of their feet, if only figuratively. Ellen Goodman demonstrates why the feminist movement struggles. Feminists are out of touch with what women want, even though they pretend and sometimes succeed as respresenting themselves othewise.
The second point I'd make is about the sexes and the drama of 9/11. From terrorists to firemen to military to politicians, this drama has been mostly acted out almost entirely by men. Men have been the heroes and the villains, while women watched from the sidelines. Feminists have long complained that history was biased in excluding women, but in 2001, when another chapter of history was written, women continued to refrain from active participation, despite all of the "progress" of feminism over the last 30 years.
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From terrorists to firemen to military to politicians, this drama has been mostly acted out almost entirely by men. Men have been the heroes and the villains, while women watched from the sidelines.
I don't think this is true. And it seems to subconsciously reflect the mentality of contemporary feminism. The fact is that most men and women's lives are closely intertwined. Dealing with the death of a husband or wife from terrorism is no less "front line" then getting killed while working in the WTC.
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To Plumber:
I agree with most of your points, and your statements show thought and insight. You're right, of course, that most men's and women's lives are closely intertwined. But I have a problem with your claim that a grieving spouse's experience in the context of terrorist violence is no less "front line" than getting killed by terrorists while working at the WTC.
Maybe I'm not precisely understanding your point. I'm thinking here about the normal situation in which the husband's job is significantly higher risk than the woman's job. I would never go along with the notion that a widow has made the same sacrifice as her husband who was killed in dangerous military service or in a dangerous civilian occupation. No doubt the loss of a spouse is tragic and can be emotionally devastating. But it is simply dishonest to presume that the dead soldier's widow or the dead firman's widow made an equal sacrifice or was placed at equal risk. The same thing can be said about the grieving husband of a woman who died in childbirth.
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I would never go along with the notion that a widow has made the same sacrifice as her husband who was killed in dangerous military service or in a dangerous civilian occupation. No doubt the loss of a spouse is tragic and can be emotionally devastating. But it is simply dishonest to presume that the dead soldier's widow or the dead firman's widow made an equal sacrifice or was placed at equal risk.
Amen. How often do we see that when men die sympathy and attention are redirected by the media to their widows or other female relatives?
sd
Those who like this sort of thing
will find this the sort of thing they like.
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When someone dies, whether or not they die violently, we give sympathy and attention to those left behind because it's already too late to give those things to the dead. I have a friend whose teenage daughter commmitted suicide last year. Though it's awful the daughter killed herself, it's too late to do anything for her. It is HE who needs the attention and sympathy. And yes, I do think he's worse off than her. She is no longer in a place where she feels the pain and torment that caused her to leave this world. Nothing can hurt her anymore. Her father, OTOH, is left behind to blame himself and feel a pain beyond anything that can be put into words.
At least two 9/11 widows have committed suicide. One of them hung herself in October or November, the other blew her brains out last month. Those are the two I've heard about. I'm sure there are more. I don't blame them. If I lost my partner in the WTC, I would not have wanted to continue living. I say that in all honesty, without any shame. I wouldn't just sit here and think, "I'm glad it was him and not me."
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Rumors I've heard among acquaintences say that the reason that the men of Flight 93 are not being conferred with the Presidential Medal of Freedom (as I recall, the highest civilian honor) is that no one can find a documented case of a women having participated. This is to say that a medal is NOT being given to heroic men because they cannot find a heroic woman to include.
I don't know if it's true or not, I just heard it in conversation with someone who attended an event that featured one of the widows. If it's true, it's an outrage. If it's not, then it's just another rumor.
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Frank, we had a debate related to this subject on another thread on this site. Some people thought that some of the women on that flight should get the same award as the men who acted, because those women considered possibly taking heroic action.
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This is to say that a medal is NOT being given to heroic men because they cannot find a heroic woman to include.
Interesting. I wouldn't be surprised, although I would think that if they *must* find a woman to include, they would've included that stewardess who had allegedly been planning to throw boiling water at the hijackers. That's been documented at least in terms of press coverage, I suppose.
Let's hope the Medal of Honor thing is a nasty rumor.
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If it's true, it's outrageous.
If a medal ever is awarded, it will fall somewhat in line with what I was saying. The awarding of a posthumous medal is more for the comfort and benefit of those the heroes left behind. Awarding such a medal comforts the living families because it acknowledges their loved ones died as martyrs. The recipients are dead. It's not like they can fully enjoy the honor. I'm sure they can enjoy it to some extent from the spirit world, but they're probably also enjoying many other, better things that aren't available to us. A medal probably means a lot more to their families than it does to them.
That's not to say it shouldn't be awarded, though. We shouldn't deny the living this comfort just because the dead can't benefit from it.
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Why not award the medal to Ellen Goodman for having the "courage" to indicate that the impression of masculinity one can discern from the example of Afghan males under the Taliban is the "true" impression.
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Check out this speech:
http://www.wfsi.org/BerkNWLC.html
You need your beets -- you recycle, recycle!
Don't eat your beets -- recycle, recycle!
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When someone dies, whether or not they die violently, we give sympathy and attention to those left behind because it's already too late to give those things to the dead.
Yes, but we don't have to reframe the perpetrator's crime as being against the widow, which is what often happens. What's wrong with lining 7,000 men up in front of ditches outside Sebrenica? Some of those guys had wives, doncha know?
sd
Those who like this sort of thing
will find this the sort of thing they like.
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It doesn't have to be one or the other. The crime is against both the victim and the victim's family. Once the victim crosses over to the spirit world, nothing can hurt him or her any longer. The family, OTOH, is left with nightmares and misery for the rest of their days. That's why those women killed themselves.
This is why the family can sue for civil compensation, because we recognize they too suffered from the crime.
It's disturbing that this is being framed as a gender issue. I don't see the difference between the grief of a wife whose husband was murdered versus that of a husband whose wife was murdered. There are WTC widowers too.
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To Claire4Liberty:
I don't agree with your argument that the survivors are worse off than the dead. And I'm thinking primarily here of widows compared to their husbands who were killed in military service, high-risk occupations, or in ethnic slaughter of the kind that took place in the Balkans (the males were separated from their families and murdered.) Surely the survivors often have the ability to pick up the pieces and start over. The dead can't hurt anymore because they can no longer experience life.
I reject the attitude that the widows have made the same sacrifice as their husbands who were put at risk by design so that their wives could be protected. And I completely dismiss the notion that when a loved one is lost the surviving spouse and family members are worse off. Survivors pick up the pieces and move on with their lives all the time. If they couldn't, none of us would be here now.
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I didn't say that women weren't affected by the tragedy of 9/11, what I said was that men and women were affected in different ways. Men played active roles, while women played passive roles. Look at Afghanistan. Women there played passive roles (they stayed home and wore their Burkas) while men played active roles (they fought the war).
It has always been this way, and I suspect always will.
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What women want, we are told, is old-time (literally) manners, an anachronistic aristocrat who knows one flower from another. More to the cinematic point, a man who can rescue a tired ''career woman'' from a lifetime of selling diet margarine and whisk her back to a Victorian happily-ever-after.
In other words, this fantasy is about a woman who is tired of wage labor and attracted to a man who has a lot of money. I don't have any problem with this or other fantasies. The problem is when real men are only valued in terms of their money. And there's no appreciation for the possibility that men too would like to do other things than be wage slaves.
But what does the composite model of masculinity that is emerging out of the national chat rooms look like now? It's a man who is strong but not silent, who can open the door for a woman and work under her, make war on the enemy and make dinner for the family. And we used to ask if women could have it all.
Sounds like a realistic aspiration for masculinity, and much more common than male-haters appreciate. Not having it all means that not everyone can be an aristocrat, and that there are tradeoffs between wage labor and time spent nurturing children or pursuing personal interests. Men and women would both benefit by recognizing that no one can have it all. Men would especially benefit from discussing openly who has what, because they certainly don't have it all.
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I was kind of misinformed @ Japan, even though I'm taking Japanese (including lessons in culture). It's just...different. Comparing Japanese and Western culture is kind of like comparing apples and oranges, I realize now. Both round, both fruits, but otherwise totally different. :)
And for guys in MacKinnon country: I feel sorry for you. May you have the courage to hang in there!
L.R.
"Female men's activist" is not an oxymoron.
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LadyRivka, thank you for your presence.
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But what does the composite model of masculinity that is emerging out of the national chat rooms look like now? It's a man who is strong but not silent, who can open the door for a woman and work under her, make war on the enemy and make dinner for the family. And we used to ask if women could have it all.
"Sounds like a realistic aspiration for masculinity, and much more common than male-haters appreciate."
Not to me, Plumber. . .read it again and notice how her depiction is all about men doing 'it all', not having 'it all'.
Goodman wants servants. . .not equals. Three guesses as to the makeup of the chat rooms she's sourcing from and who's doing the defining of this 'composite model of masculinity'. . .and the second two don't count.
It's a composite of what Goodman, and people like her, want men to do. . .not what men themselves want to be.
Ack!
Non Illegitimi Carborundum, and KOT!
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After some whining about positive portrayals of men in the media in the wake of September 11th, misandrist journalist Ellen Goodman wrote:
Meanwhile, the current portraits of masculinity are not all heroic. In Afghanistan, protection of women was a protection racket. Their segregated society was nothing if not old-fashioned. The Taliban were nightmare patriarchs; men were men and women wore burkas.
But why didn't Ellen Goodman choose to make bigoted comments about Afghans? Her example refers only to Afghan males, not to males per se. This is another indication of the depth of her misandry. We're supposed to conclude that the true picture of masculinity per se is encapsulated by the example of Afghan society. Whether this example has any relation to masculinity per se, or to males in North America isn'r established--it's taken for granted as a matter of cult-feminist doctrine.
The use of such examples is more along the lines of a white supremacist arguing for the inferiority of other races; I say this granting that sexism and racism aren't interchangable.
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Listen: I'm going to stop posting unless you respond to my magnificent posts! j/k
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I agree that your posts are magnificent, Mars. You call it like it is with Ellen Goodman. She is a bigot and a hypocrit, like her friends in the Sisterhod.
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Listen: I'm going to stop posting unless you respond to my magnificent posts! j/k
Maybe you should post more gender-issue-derived mathematical formulas for us to ponder. :)
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