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LOL! Ever since we first started dating, my SO and I have fought over the check (good naturedly, of course). A time or two I've resorted to getting the waiter to bring me the check and paying it when he excuses himself to the restroom.
It's been a point of honor for him to be the one who pays, but I think that it tickles him a bit for a woman to want to treat him too.
Thanks for the chuckle...
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If a woman you don't know that well insists on paying the bill for a dinner date, the odds are that she is not romantically interested.
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neuro-linguistic seduction tech comes in, Mars.
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Oh brother! You mean neuro-linguistic sedunction in the sense of those "remote seduction" hypnotic suggestion tapes and CD's of www.wendi.com? My browser jammed up and I wound up there, which I how I know about them--honest.
P.S. I had a hilarious idea: someone should play one of those direct suggestion tapes on the air on one of the men's movement programs, kind of as background accompaniment. Perhaps you don't share my sense of humor, in which case you'll be punished ;)
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Brilliant observation, Mars (no relation to MB).
It's almost as if she's buying back any obligation implied by having the male pay. This in turn suggests that the way to get a gal to pay is to make it clear she knows you know what your paying for the date implies -- preferably about the time the dessert is arriving.
So being "allowed" to pay may be a Good Thing...
-------------------------------------------------- -------
/* Not All Men Are Fools -- Some Are Martian Bachelors */
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Hey Martian, do I detect a bit of misandry at the bottom of your post?
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by nagzi
(nagziNO@SPAMPLEASEphreaker.net)
on Saturday December 08, @12:05PM EST (#7)
(User #86 Info)
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Hey Martian, do I detect a bit of misandry at the bottom of your post?
I think its suppose to refer to John Gray's foolish book. Men are from Mars, and Women are from Venus.
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Nagz,
Okay. I didn't mean to raise any hackles and I hope I didn't. I was just havin' a little fun at MB's expense.
Frank
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Of course it's a brilliant observation: that's why I'm the God of War and you're still a Martian Batchelor.
I disagree that there is any sure fire "way" to get a woman to pay; making the matter of payment "clear" or in any way commenting on the "ultimate significance" of the proceedings (which you no doubt undertake in an earnest monotone, don't you, Martian Batchelor?) is a good way to alienate yourself fast--pardon me, you are an alien.
If the woman insists on buying, it's the same thing as if she offers you her cheek when you attempt to kiss her on the mouth: no romantic interest whatsoever, for all eternity. I hope these things are completely obvious to you, Martian.
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My kingdom for a spell-checker! It's Martian Bachelor, not Batchelor. I still think you're terribly confused, even if you agree with me.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday December 08, @11:32PM EST (#12)
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Stop expecting women to "put out" for you after a date and you may find they won't make you pay for a date. Don't tell me you go out with females merely for their conversation.
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Guess what: you're wrong. Another thing: only a Martian Bachelor would take that kind of advice about women. If they insist on paying, they aren't romantically interested. I thought I made it clear that I didn't have any "expectations" about those women. Anyway, my expectations are none of your business.
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Stop expecting women to "put out" for you after a date and you may find they won't make you pay for a date.
Ah yes. The old song and dance: treat women like ladies and they'll treat us like gentlemen. Well, I'm here to say that that is still a hard and fast rule... in Guatemala and parts of Mexico.
I've been out with a lot of different kinds of women, some who insisted on splitting the cheque, some who paid, and some who tried to ignore the cheque until I paid. I treated them all with respect, and although I often hoped that there might be some "chemistry" (i.e. that at some point in the "relationship"... if there were to be one... I might get some) I never expected anything at all.
Whether a woman treats a man like a wallet has nothing to do with how that man treats her and everything to do with how much respect she has for men in general. With respect for men at an all time low, as you might imagine not many women are offering to pay or split the bill. It also has nothing to do with relative income: I've been out with women who earned minimum wage but felt honour-bound to split the cheque, and women earning corporate salaries who wouldn't touch the thing. What it boils down to is personality—and respect for the guy across the table.
Oh, and "we'll give you some respect after you give us respect"...? Perhaps, but you always say that, and you never say how long after... ;-)
P.S.: As for the problem of people earning different salaries, I have always tried to choose venues that cater to the lowest common denominator. If some vice-president of a company invites me to a high-class restaurant and then leaves the cheque on the table, I feel as though I've just been mugged. As such, I always assume that the woman I'm asking out will want to split the bill and so I choose the restaurant or entertainment accordingly.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday December 08, @11:37PM EST (#13)
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Oh and who pays for the extra nice clothes, make-up and hair-do that's expected of women? If they don't doll themselves up there sure to be accused of being a "feminist dyke", and probably not asked out to begin with. Men do not have to pay anywhere near the amount on clothes, make-up etc, that women do. If you want us looking like pretty "slabs of meat" then you pay for it. You won't let women be any other way.
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Anonymous, I think that's a pretty flimsy rationalization to avoid taking responsibility for a reasonable share of the dating expenses. I'd never want to date a woman who felt entitled to a guy's wallet. And I wouldn't condone a guy feeling entitled to sex from a woman just because he'd paid for dinner and a movie. Of course you're ignoring the fact that sometimes it isn't only the guy who wants sex.
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There you go blaming the male victim. No one's forcing women to do that to themselves--unless you're saying that we guys are so handsome and desirable that you can't resist us. It's true, isn't it? All it takes is the threat of being accused a "feminist dyke" to "coerce" a woman to spend a fortune on self-beautification? Now that's emancipation for you! Moreoever, you believe it's fair that because of men's "coercing" women into penury to play the mating game, the least that men can do is foot the bill for a meal. Ok. It's a deal, although I disagree about where the assignment of blame ought to go for women's beauty expenses.
If you're a male, never, ever take advice from a woman on relationships.
But I understand: overall readiness for a relationship devolves to the agreement between that man and the woman that it's all the man's fault.
My point, however, was that if a woman insists on paying, she's not romantically interested. I guess you've buttressed [great word for this contest, huh?] my point: if after going into debt to beautify herself to mess with the minds of the men who "coerced" her into beautifying herself, she still insists on paying for the meal, that means she wants to be "coerced" by some other guy.
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I disagree that if a woman insists on paying for a date she isn't romantically interested. A woman might insist on paying to convey to a man nonverbally that she is not, like some of her sisters, a leech hellbent on sucking every dime from her intended suitor.
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by Anonymous User on Monday December 10, @05:34PM EST (#18)
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Women, like men, just don't know what to do anymore.
If a woman insists on paying for the date, that means she must not be interested. If a woman accepts a man's offer to pay, that means she's a leech hellbent on sucking every dime from the guy.
It gets even worse when the guy chooses to date someone who makes a lot less money than him. It's not reasonable to expect someone who only makes $7/hour to blow $30+ on dinner every week, no matter their gender.
Seems to me that dating sucks. It's not worth the stress, the anxiety and the screaming arguments over money. It's better to be alone, keep your money for yourself, and not come home with your throat hoarse from screaming about who should pay for a $2 cup of coffee.
If you must date, you should only date within your own income bracket, so that both of you can afford the activities you choose, and one person doesn't insist on doing things the other just can't afford, starting the arguments.
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Perhaps in your case, if you're a woman. It's a rule of thumb, a guide to the perplexed. In the overwhelming majority of cases, this rule of thumb will prevent males from investing too much of their time and money in mediocre encounters with the opposite sex. I'm curious if any men reading this have found that most--if not all--of the women they went out with who insisted on paying weren't romantically interested in them.
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I'm curious if any men reading this have found that most--if not all--of the women they went out with who insisted on paying weren't romantically interested in them.
Personally, I've never been out with a woman who insisted on paying. I kind of assumed that they actually don't exist in my city. :)
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Oh and who pays for the extra nice clothes, make-up and hair-do that's expected of women? If they don't doll themselves up there [sic] sure to be accused of being a "feminist dyke"...
Oh, but you (cleverly?) forget to mention the one glaring fact that blows this whole whiny rationalization to pieces: it's other women who are most avidly checking out your clothing, your hairstyle, and your makeup, and are most ready to whisper to each other that you look like a "feminist dyke" if you don't conform. You obviously don't spend much time with men, because if you did you would know that for the most part we have no idea if you've had your hair cut, if you changed your lip gloss colour, or even if you bought a new dress. We think you look fine in everything, and some of us actually prefer you with less (or no) makeup. It's the other whispering members of your own sex that hold you to impossible standards of beauty.
OK, I'll make a concession: I have one friend who insists on dating only gorgeous, foreign goddesses. He's also never been on a date. Not even once, so he hardly counts now, does he?
All this sound and fury about men imposing beauty standards on women when in fact we don't even notice and, even if we did, trust me most of us wouldn't care.
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by nagzi
(nagziNO@SPAMPLEASEphreaker.net)
on Saturday December 08, @02:53AM EST (#4)
(User #86 Info)
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I can make myself stop gawking at a women's boobs, so surely a woman can make herself stop "looking" at my wallet.
Which reminds me, I need a new wallet.
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The person who asks the other person out should pay for the date OR make it clear right up front that the offer is dutch treat. It is unfair to ask someone out and then harbor hidden resentment for them not paying or going halfsies.
This is true of all social situations, not just dating. If a couple asks another couple out to dinner the aking couple should pay.
If a man asks me out to dinner, I expect him to pay. I always offer to pick up the tip, but I don't feel obligated to do so. If he pays for the movie tickets I offer to get the snacks. If I'm asked out to an expensive place, I always make it plain I don't expect him to spend so much (in a playful way). If he insists, I go along (hey I love good food) but at least I've made my point.
And if I like him, I'll ask him out or offer to make a nice dinner. I've asked guys out plenty of times (after he's asked me out, I'm not THAT brave) and picked up the tab. Sometimes there's a scuffle over the check but for the most part I think they like it, and it DOESN'T mean I'm not interested. If I'm not interested I wouldn't ask him out.
Now, once you've established a relationship with someone, let's say over 5 dates and it looks like it's going to keep going, then the dynamic should change. It should be equal and not dependent on who asks out whom. If it's not and it bothers you, get out quick.
I agree that its difficult to date someone who makes a lot more than you. In college I dated an guy 10 years older who was already well established in his career and I was flat broke. There is no way I could keep up dollar for dollar. But I made dinner at his house (he bought the ingredients) or invited him to free or ultra-cheap university affairs, or parties etc. whenever I got the chance. I don't think it was unfair. He had the option of dating someone with more money if he wanted.
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This an old thread and this post is not likely to be read, but I'll throw in my $.02 worth anyway. Women are taking the initiative more no than ever in asking men out on dates. We could get into chivalry and other things about whether or not this is correct; I choose not to enter that debate here.
Here is the simple rule I suggest: whoever makes the invitation is initially responsible for the bill. Subpart a) in a relationship where mutual interest is established, the woman should make a point of carrying her own financial burden. If she doesn't then the man needs to first suggest this somehow, tactfully. If the hint isn't taken, he should either move on or be saddled with his own minimal backbone for the rest of his life.
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Well, being a college student, I'm usually flat-broke. :) So my BF (who's 26) usually pays. The only time I had cash and offered to pay, he said no, paid for the meal, and gave ME the change. Gotta love that!
What do you guys think?
"Female men's activist" is not an oxymoron.
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