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I do suggest that men need a place where they can discuss what they want, without having to stop and explain or justify it to a woman.
Personally I don't feel I need a "safe space for men" to discuss my ideas. I also think that promoting such a notion also justifies the existence of Women's Studies programs as opposed to them being reformed into Gender Studies programs (as they are seen as a "safe space for women" to discuss their ideas).
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This signature has been infected with Anthrax. Take your medicine.
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I have to disagree with my good friend Raymond on one minor point - and only to irk him; for my own amusement.
It is at least 6 million years since male primates started to be utilised and manipulated by female ones - not 3 million!
And this has given them a good head start!
Raymond is far too generous.
6 million years ago we came down from the trees. And it's been a downhill slope for males ever since.
Female apes who failed to manipulate male ones into looking after them and their offspring didn't make it down the line - evolutionarywise. Their lineages have completely disappeared.
And so we're now left on this planet having to share our space with the best manipulators of males since the Big Bang.
And, from the moment they park themselves in front of the mirror in the morning, they're at it!
AND THEY KNOW IT!
Is there to be no space that we can call our own!?
Are we to share this golden piece of cyberspace with the gender that has no shame?
Are we to be invaded and encroached upon by those bearing genes which seek nothing more than to manipulate, duplicate and confabulate?
But Scott must go where HIS interests and his heart lie.
His website gets better and better and adds value to all of our lives.
I'd say, "Leave it to the boss." Let him steer the course that he thinks best.
We shall support him.
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Anna, In reply to your post #18, one place where you can start is at your son's school. If you've read "The War Against Boys," then you know that everyone in education today is concentrating on math and science and girls while boys are left to go to hell in a handbasket. Since most public school districts are run locally, a small group of parents CAN have a measurable impact.
In addition to your letter-writing, I think this would be the best place to start.
Frank H
(fhujber@hotmail.com)
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Hey, Subversive.
I don't have a problem with male-only discussions, but I *do* see your point. We can't let male-only become what women's studies has become. What we *really* need to do is teach ourselves to not fear speaking out with women around. Unfortunately, sexual harassment laws, et al, have created that atmosphere of fear, which is one reason I do enjoy male-only discussions from time to time.
Granted, women are half the population on this Earth, and we cannot (should not) try to ignore them as gender feminists have done with men.
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Thank you Frank. My little guy is at present 14 month old so we have a ways to go with him and school. Thinking private all boys school though, which my daughter says he'll hate me for.
In Scott's original post on this thread, he made mention of this movement being at sort of a critical point. (Not sure of exact words). So, I've been pondering this for the day, and taking a mental note of the types of discussions and letter writing campaigns and other areas of activism.
This is just my humble humble opinion, but if you want this to really take off and change things for the nation, the 'movement' will have to prioritize it's gripe points and then rally everyone with any kind of brain and/or heart against the status quo.
Personally, I totally understand and 'get' the issues mentioned on this site about things such as domestic violence, guys being stuck with child support for a kid that not their's, men's rights in Afgh. being ignored, child support unfairness and so on and so on. But, although these issues are perfectly valid, I don't think that is going to win the hearts and minds of the majority of people. People may venture onto this site from ifeminism or whatever and see all this stuff and get turned off. They may never get to know the other really really really critical issues and may continue to think men are whining and/or anti-children when that is the farthest from the truth.
So, all said, in my opinion it may very well proove to be good war strategy to have your 'own' site to talk about the FULL RANGE of issues you face. But you will resonate more with the general web surfing public if you (and I use the word 'you' to mean the men's movement in general, not necessarily just this site) stick to issues that there can be no middle ground on, no two sides to the story. Once the pendulum starts a swinging', it's all over as history has prooved on numerous social issues. Then you can broaden your goals.
In my humble opinion, those are (from the eyes of a Mom) 1. Lack of attention, proper schooling techniques in public schools. 2. Clear reverse discrimination: "women and minorities encouraged to apply" 3. Lack of positive male role models on TV/media (Bring back Superman and get rid of all the "Yes Dear's"!!) 4. Take boys of Ritalin for God's sake and let them play tackle football in grade school if that's what they want. 5. Men's health concerns.
So for this reason I would encourage a men's only section. Yes I'd be excluded but so what. I'll get over it. Women exclude men routinely. I would still however want to be involved with the chore issues as I see them, personally (not that I'm in your shoes).
Ooopss, sorry, bordering on a rant. But this is truely my brain fart of the day and I hope this will help because there's a little guy asleep in the other room depending on it.
Anna
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When I set about writing this, I had the ambition of writing a great essay; the post that resulted is somewhat desultory...
It's no accident that the rise of interest in men's rights and the men's movement coincides with the development of the internet. Mainstream media has tended, in recent decades, to be ideologically feminist, so the men's movement has benefited from the continued expansion of the internet in its capacity as an alternative, interactive communications medium. One of the original functions of the internet was to facilitate collaboration between geographically distant scientific researchers; if anything, the collaborative uses of the internet have been increasingly exploited by others--this site is an example.
It is appropriate now to consider our ethical obligations as thinkers and writers; since this is something most of us probably won't learn in school or in the universities (I'd love to hear from anyone who insists otherwise--I maintain that the schools and universities have a vested interest in NOT producing intellectuals), I'll share with you some of my own desiderata for intellectual discourse (even if I fail to do them justice).
This goes beyond the men's movement, but the men's movement provides excellent opportunities for practising intellectual discipline and for anyone interested in developing as a thinker. In case you think I've veered hopelessly off the topic, I'll state that learning to handle trolls is part of your development as an intellectual, and as a men's activist.
By the way, the first thing to know about becoming an intellectual is this: the way to become a good intellectual is to start out by being a bad intellectual, as opposed to becoming a mental technician (more on this later) or something else, and then later hoping to "branch out" as an intellectual. Trolls can be of some assistance to us: they can help us exercise restraint, but if we fail to exercise restraint, let's hope that we failed in the process of becoming better intellectuals--I'll attempt to explain what this means.
As thinkers, we should make an effort to define our terms, whenever possible--trolls will rarely do this. The exhortation to define one's terms goes back at least to Socrates; one of my favorite quotes about the necessity of making definitions is from Marcus Aurelius, although I can't locate the quote! The effort to define one's terms can be painful and time consuming; there is nothing wrong with using someone else's definitions if you agree with them (and attribute the source). I offer an example from Richard Hoftstadter's Anti-Intellectualism in American Life, who suggested a defining characteristic of intellectual thought: the intellectual pursues ideas wherever they may lead, independently of any practical or external purpose. I suggest reading, if you haven't already done so, at least the second chapter of Hoftstadter's book for its discussion of intellectuals, especially in contradistinction with mental technicians.
As intellectuals (I'm saying virtually nothing about activists or activism), we have a duty to define our terms, make our presuppositions evident, to avoid cathexis and to pursue ideas to their logical conclusions, even if we find them emotionally or ethically abhorrent or resist them for some reason.
This is easy to state, but requires considerable discipline in practice, so much in fact, that our institutions, such as our schools and universities, have an easy time discouraging intellectual development, even as they nurture future generations of mental technicians.
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I've just read the whole of this thread, and I think a lot of good points have been made. There's no point addressing them all because we all have our own opinions, but there are a couple I'd like to pick up on.
Firstly, the way we express ourselves and the things we say both need careful consideration. Several times I've posted comments which I've later regretted because someone has picked up on a chance remark that pressed one of their buttons. I've then found myself engaged in a discussion I didn't want to have while the real issue went largely untouched. It would be easy to blame the other person and call them an idiot (I've done that too!), but a lot of the reponsibility lies with me for not filtering out of my comments those remarks which don't really have anything to do with the main issue. At the same time, however, it would be impossible to discuss men's issues without pressing anyone's buttons, so the best response to those who would start an irrelevant, diverting thread is to completely ignore them.
Secondly - and more importantly - there's this business of where the men's movement should go from here. Like a number of other people on this thread, I too have the feeling that the men's movement has reached or is reaching some kind of watershed. Some of this feeling is probably due to our patronage of mensactivism.org and the general level of awareness we have developed as a result. I'm sure many of us felt that the events in Colorado surrounding the display of ceramic penises were almost a turning point, but ultimately one that wasn't properly exploited. The failure of the men's movement to capitalise on this golden opportunity highlights many of the areas where we need to get our collective act together. The correct way of handling the situation would have been with a peaceful but public protest outside the library. This would have required a group of no more that a dozen men AND women selling a single message in a non-threatening way. I suggest the slogan 'Stop Hating Men', but maybe there's a better one. The main requirement is that it's short, unambiguous and to the point. It should fit well onto a T-shirt. Imagine a dozen or so people outside the library with their 'Stop Hating Men' T-shirts, their posters of facts and figures relating to the true nature of domestic violence, and their clipboards so people can sign a petition to have the offending display taken down. The media would have to be alerted, of course, both to the protest and the true DV stats. Of course, some of you may protest that these people would have been arrested for causing a disturbance of the peace, but even if they had it would not be before public awareness had been raised.
This brings me to an important point. There seems to be a very poor understading within the men's movement of the ways in which one can capitalise on almost anything that happens. For instance, when El Dildo Bandito stole the offending display there were a number of comments posted to the effect that the guy was an idiot and had ruined everything and had given the 'radfems' the ammunition they needed to portray this as an anti-women patriarchal thing. However, had feminists wanted to cry oppression they could have done so no matter what action was taken, whether it was theft or correct legal action. They understand that events can be given a meaning irrespective of whether that meaning was intended. This is the 'it' that the men's movement doesn't get. It's almost as if some of us have forgotten that we can refute someone else's claim, at least when that claim comes from a feminist. If feminists cry oppression and patriarchy the men's movement needs to say that wonderful word "No". We need to explain ourselves, rather than getting into a sulk and attacking each other because some feminist said "Boo!" Feminist will always be saying "Boo!", so we'd better get used to refuting them and giving our own explanation of events, and not just in relation to future feminist activity, but also to current feminist activity, especially within the education and legal systems.
Here's how to capitalise on anything. First and foremost is the need for public protest. A single "Stop Hating Men" sticker stuck in a public place will be seen by more people in one day than visit mensactivism.org in a week. How much better then for people to be making a protest. It can be quite modest in scale, but it must be visible and directed at changing something - such as the Colorado library display, or something happening at a university or products being sold in a store (eg. manhating greetings cards). The media must be informed in advance and told exactly why the protest is being made - remember, we're going to need a lot of allies in the media in order to really change anything. Feminist "Boo!" comments, such as "This is another example of threatened men trying to put women back in their place" should be immediately countered with words to the effect "That's simply nonsense. We're doing this because what's going on here causes serious damage to men/boys/relationships/whatever." You get the idea? Feminists will always pull the oppression/patriarchy/threatened men stunt, so we have to be ready to sweep it aside every time and restate our position. We have to take the definition of the issue out of their hands and make it our own, and we have to do it over and over and over again. If we can quote some dreadful feminist remark to underline our point that's all the better; wrongfooting feminists is an essential part of the process. So, a protest is made. It's public and it defends its actions. But what if people get arrested? Well, we turn that into a protest too. The suffragettes protested by smashing shop windows, and when they were arrested and thrown in prison they went on hunger strike. They understood how to turn any situation to their advantage nearly a hundred years ago. If guys get put in jail for protesting they should go on hunger strike. Few states (with the possible exception of California) would let them starve to death, and while they're protesting in prison we would have a bunch of people holding vigils outside, again with media coverage. OK, it's maybe an extreme example, but this kind of continuous identification of opportunity is the key to success. Everything is an opportunity for us to get our message accross. Remember, feminists can take a woman sytematically murdering all five of her children and turn her into an icon of her gender and yet further evidence of how anti-women society is! We need to develop that kind of ingenuity - though I'm sure we can manage to be rather more morally sound in our choice of causes.
OK, I've ranted on for long enough and I need to get some work done today. I have a lot of practical ideas for things the men's movement can do, and that's what we need to develop. Within the men's movement there is too much doing things by remote control - by letters and e-mails - and not enough getting out there and making the message public, or at least that's my impression. As a movement I think we need to unify ourselves internationally under a common banner that encompasses all our concerns, for it is this common banner that will be the message we need to hammer home again and again and again and again.
One final thing. Thinking about some of the ham-fisted ways I've tried to express my views in various threads, and about some of the angry, gloomy and fatalistic remarks of others, it struck me that the last thing the men's movement needs is to come accross as a bunch of miserable, ranting crackpots. There's enough of that in the feminist movement. Instead the men's movement must become bright, positive, vibrant, exciting - in other words, something that people will like and so be willing to listen to and become involved with. Our internet presence is a prime target for this kind of makeover, especially with its inherant appeal to a younger audience. I had the idea of creating a website with a lively, sparky image. I wanted to call it something like 'Citizens Against Manhating' because the web address would then be cam.com, which has a nice ring to it and is easy to remember. Unfortunately cam.com is taken, but you get the general idea. The site would be themed and hosted by a character designed to appeal to males (and females) of all ages. I thought a dog would be nice, seeing as they have yet to succumb to feminist propaganda and so remain man's best friend. But this dog would be a wiley, likeable, masculine character, not a soft pooch. This would be a streetwise, slightly devilish character, well-rounded, as at-home in the study as in the gym. In essence, a synthesis of everything that's good about masculinity. All the serious information relating to such issues as DV, fathers' rights and education would be there, but it would be buffered by material of a less immediately threatening and difficult nature. One of the key purposes of the site would be to make the men's movement more approachable and likeable than the feminist movement. Certainly if you go on the NOW site it feels like you're stuck in a room with a bunch of hysterics, and that's the last thing we need to replicate.
Shoot me down in flames if you like, but not without offering some better ideas.
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Perhaps my remarks on the philosophical duties of the polemicist appear unrelated to the pragmatic concerns expressed in this thread; to the extent that I have characterised intellectuals as having an almost Zen-like disinterest in the outcome of their investigations--apart from their truth--they are.
Nevertheless, making a habit of defining one's terms, exposing presuppositions, avoiding excessive and exclusive commitment to an idea, and holding others to reasonable standards of intellectual discourse can serve as a defense against that vicious assault on our Achilles heel: the charge that we are whining.
How do macho guys who are supposed to take whatever life deals them--especially when the part of life involved is a segment of human society with some vested interest in having macho guys take their punches--raise reasonable objections to mistreatment without exposing themselves to the charge of whining? The answer is that they can't. The charge is ad hominem, by definition. Allow me to illustrate by accusing myself of whining.
"Dr Matrix, you're whining!"
"And you (me) haven't addressed any one of my points by accusing me of whining. Since I'm supposed to have all the power, along with a proclivity to become violent, I'll consider those fighting words, and use my power and innate capacity for violence to silence you (myself)."
Lest you consider me totally facetious, you might consider Germaine Greer, who suggested that women use their feminine wiles in the pursuit of gender equality. You might consider me--in this respect only--a kind of transgendered Germaine Greer, accordingly urging men to use their power, which is held to be pervasive and responsible for the bulk of evil in the world, among other bigoted claims. I suggest that men use their power in the face of the dismissive charge that we are just whining.
Let our accusers know that we are serious: we mean business. We'll begin by behaving like gentlemen, politely ruling out the ad hominem charge of whining as inadmissible in rational discussion. However, we should not rule out escalating the uses of our power if our opponents refuse to behave, but only if there is no alternative: we should avoid launch on whining at all costs.
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"Dr Matrix, you're whining!"
"And you (me) haven't addressed any one of my points by accusing me of whining. Since I'm supposed to have all the power, along with a proclivity to become violent, I'll consider those fighting words, and use my power and innate capacity for violence to silence you (myself)."
Dr. Matrix, you're talking to yourself!! ;) Seriously, though, I find your comments refreshing and enlightening, and apart from the rest of this thread (not that there's anything wrong with the rest of this thread).
Thanks. May we call you Jeremy Greer? ;)
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This message may get buried here, but this thread seems like the best place to post an update on the El Dildo Bandido affair. One of my main intentions with this post is to garner ideas on mounting protests. If this sounds like a bit of bitching, so be it. I’m somewhat frustrated, though I think that my experiences can serve to educate us for the future.
A couple of weeks have now passed since I called a number of local men's organizations regarding the severed ceramic penises that were hung in the Boulder Public Library (BPL). Only one of those organizations returned my call -- they left a fairly terse message stating that they don't become involved in domestic violence issues.
I've spoken, on several occasions, with Bob Rowan about trying to get the media involved in mounting a protest at the BPL. Whenever we discussed this idea, he was extremely enthusiastic. We talked about the possibility of trying to get Lewis and Floorwax, two very popular radio personalities, to help organize or at least publicize a demonstration at the BPL. Unfortunately, Bob apparently never spoke with them about it. I certainly never heard from them. Also, I spoke with a man who has written several songs about the BPL events. He said that he would be on the Peter Boyle radio talk show this morning and would try to get Peter to call me to discuss the men’s rights/men’s movement issues related to all of this. I never received a call. (In fairness, I have to say that the singer/song writer may well have tried to get Peter to call me and Peter may have decided not to because he may have felt that men’s issues were not germane to the theme of today’s show.)
In addition, Bob called me last night to say that he’d rather we dropped the idea of a demonstration for the time being. Other than the fact that the weather has changed for the worse (winter has arrived), I couldn’t ascertain why he’s had this change of heart about the matter.
One good thing that came from this is that Wendy McElroy sent me her article on El Dildo Bandido (to be published tomorrow, I think, on Foxnews.com) for proof reading and I was able to fill her in on some important factual details.
If I’d tried to mount a demonstration on my own by calling people that I know, I’m sure I would have gotten maybe two or three to show up (including equalitarian62). Maybe if I’d quit my job and spent a week posting notices around the Boulder/Denver area a few more people would have come, but I’m not sure and I’m not in a position to quit work.
So, what I’m wondering is: How do we go about organizing demonstrations without any direct contacts with the media and when men’s organizations won’t even return calls about an issue that is so hot locally. Any ideas?
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by Anonymous User on Monday November 26, @03:41PM EST (#37)
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It is at least 6 million years since male primates started to be utilised and manipulated by female ones - not 3 million!...6 million years ago we came down from the trees. And it's been a downhill slope for males ever since...Female apes who failed to manipulate male ones into looking after them and their offspring didn't make it down the line - evolutionarywise. Their lineages have completely disappeared...And so we're now left on this planet having to share our space with the best manipulators of males since the Big Bang.
What about men who want to have wives and children, and who want to take care of their families, or at least help take care of them (if the wife works)? If a man marries, has children, and loves his wife and children, does that make him a wimp, a chump and a pussy boy?
I don't think a man who loves his wife would appreciate you telling him she's nothing but a manipulative whore with no morals and no shame. I won't even ask what you think about children. Since an infant doesn't have the capacity to work, and must depend on adults to take care of it, are babies nothing but manipulative little whores?
Not all men hate women, and see having a family as such an awful thing. Some men love their wives and children, and want families. Are those men not welcome in the men's movement?
Someone else on this site said something about feminists who want to see men and women living in separate communities, never meeting each other, and I guess reproducing by cloning. Obviously it is not just the radical feminists who believe in gender separatism. There are many anti-feminists who are gender separatists. They hate women and would prefer an all-male world, though some would settle for separatism.
I found the above post very offensive not only to women, but men as well.
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I thought the 6 million year quote was hilarious. I am a father of two and have been happily married for over 20 years. Didn't offend me in the lesat. Made me laugh from the belly! There is at least a bit of truth in this and it makes it even funnier! Great stuff Harry!
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by Anonymous User on Monday November 26, @04:15PM EST (#39)
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Granted Tom, I could have taken that post a lot more seriously than it was ever meant to be taken. That sort of thing happens on the Internet!
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Glad you could see it from a different perspective!
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i find that too often i am repeating material covered in prior posts on this board, and on my website, and this is the chime telling me it’s time to focus on other aspects of my work -- there's so much to do, and little time left
i hope readers will forgive me for the length of this post – i’ll try to wrap up some remaining loose ends
once more around the dance floor and then it’s all yours
i think this board is becoming too “moderate” and image-conscious for my content and style – i spent much of my life struggling to reach a point where i could freely express what i though needed saying without censoring myself for fear that i would offend others – in particular, i still must guard against self-editing when criticizing or contraverting the opinions of females – my conditioning, and my instinct, as with most males, is rather to fly to their protection and defense
for all our talk about not allowing ourselves to be censored and/or shamed into silence by females, we are still very much enchained psychologically and emotionally in this regard
if this is the case for those considering themselves “men’s activists,” how much more so for the balance of western masculinity?
as illustrated by my recent discussion with ms. liberty, i think this board and many of its commentators still suffer – largely unconsciously – from this problem
in this respect i would like publicly to thank steve imparl for his recent supportive post, and angryharry for his continuing encouragement and publication of my work – it’s interesting that of all the men’s organizations and sites now operating in america, my single source of corroboration comes from overseas
site administrators tell me that my work is too “dangerous” for them, and might cause them to lose readership – i am advised that after my work appears in a “major” or “mainstream” publication, then sites might pick it up and reprint
have any of you ever tried to publish a “masculist” piece in the mainstream press? – try it – you will discover that no matter how tightly your facts are aligned and verified, even “alternative” print sources won’t touch your stuff
a commentator today posted this: “How do we go about organizing demonstrations without any direct contacts with the media and when men’s organizations won’t even return calls about an issue that is so hot locally”?
again, i have addressed this topic on other threads, but because i feel the issue is crucial, i will rephrase comments i’ve already made
the boulder library fiasco presents us with a valuable lesson – let’s be sure we learn well from it, should such an opportunity again present itself
when, after weeks had already passed, i learned of the boulder library exhibit, i immediately saw the break for which i have been praying for a very long time, and began organizing an effective response, beginning with prodding local boulder men to exchange information and ideas in preparation for a non-violent protest
by the upcoming weekend i was certain that even a small protest would have an enormous impact that would make national news, and finally move men’s activism firmly from cyberspace into the streets, and from their into the national consciousness – all it would have taken was this spark, and silenced, cowed, depressed males from all over colorado, and the nation, would have been emboldened either to join the protest, or to protest in their own way, in their own time
despite thomas’ lack of response from local “men’s organizations,” the protest would have been a snap – i am quite familiar with the tools and means of organizing such a demonstration (i would also invite readers to consider what this says about the commitment, organization, and motives of boulder’s “men’s groups,” and other such organizations purporting to support the liberation of males)
when angelucci offered to attend and bring some of his compatriots, the deal was sealed, and for the first time in ages, i was convinced that the albatross would get off the ground
why? because he has what it takes – i cannot go into detail, but he is an authentic leader, and while there are uncounted numbers of pretenders, the real thing doesn’t come along often – not only would he have led the protest, he would have made it a true spectacle to behold, a hilarious, joyful and productive affair, one that would remain in the national awareness long after the placards were put down
then our hero mr. rowan stepped into the void that our own failures had allowed to form, and as soon as i learned that the exhibit was stolen, i knew that this golden moment had passed
i was incensed, and no doubt it showed in my posts – but i wasn’t angry out of some personal desire to bathe in the limelight – indeed, i take great care to ensure that i stay out of the limelight – personal notoriety only impedes my work, and i detest “celebrity”
i was pissed because after forty thousand years of effort, at last the key had been laid in our laps – and we bungled it
it’s hard for modern rationalists to imagine, but be assured that tens of thousands of honest-to-god heroes – far braver, wiser, and greater beings than i – have sacrificed their blood and lives to bring us to the moment we now inhabit, to the opportunity that was, and is, presented to us
i was enraged because while we stood around waiting – even as we do at this moment – all across the nation innocent beings are suffering unimaginable horrors, horrors that can only be rectified by exposure of the sinister elements of the feminine
to cite only one example – at this very instant, babies are being smothered repeatedly in their cribs by certain malicious feminine aspects – such tragedies have been going on since the beginning of the race, and such tragedies will continue until strong, FREE men put a stop to it
this, by the way, does not mean that females are the enemies of males -- far from it -- but there is an aspect of the feminine which is, and has always been, hostile and destructive to masculinity
everywhere in the culture i hear the same rap from males – they can’t do this because they might lose their job, they can’t do that because their wives or girlfriends would punish them, they can’t do the other because they would risk poverty, or attack, or become outcasts
your freedom, like all liberations prior, will not come without TOTAL sacrifice, even of your very lives – if you wish to be free, if you wish your culture to stop making war on you and on the innocent of the nation, you will be required to pay FULL PRICE, even to the last penny, even to your final drop of blood
if there was an easier way, believe me, i would have taken it – i hate confrontation, and i hate war
but there IS no other way – there never has been and there isn’t now
the courts will not free you, the academy will not free you, the government will not free you – expecting relief from these sources is relying on the fox to patrol the henhouse
rather than toss money down the rathole of lawsuits, i again recommend forming a small, experienced “immediate response” team of activists prepared to react to similar events in the future – the expenses for the tools of demonstrations is a pittance – the main expense is transportation and lodging during protests – some activists can handle this from their own pockets, but many, especially those who have been activists for decades -- cannot
the institutions of america MUST keep you enchained for their very survival – they live off you as a tick off a mammal’s blood -- but they must, and will, be overturned – there will be no joy in it, either, only necessity
the liberation of masculinity, and the re-conjoining of female and male, is the catalyst that will permit reform of not merely interpersonal relations, but the healing of our sick nation and transformation of our ravaged planet
we are privileged to live in an hour in which we are exponentially empowered to accomplish all these objectives – and these objectives WILL be accomplished – the only question is how long will we permit the present toxicity and suffering to continue – even now we teeter on the brink of yet another dark age
unpalatable as indeed it is, heaven is a group project – NOBODY gets in until EVERYBODY gets in, and i mean EVERYBODY, even those we consider the BAD GUYS, even those we deem most despicable and vile, even those we consider our worst enemies
forgive my criticism of those i consider my allies – again, necessity and not a little desperation drives me -- know that each of your names is etched indelibly into my heart for the work you have done, are doing, and will do
blessings on each of you and i extend to you my everlasting thanks for your efforts in aiding the liberation of masculinity, the nation, and all creation
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have any of you ever tried to publish a “masculist” piece in the mainstream press? – try it – you will discover that no matter how tightly your facts are aligned and verified, even “alternative” print sources won’t touch your stuff
Indeed. I work for an alternative newspaper. They allowed me one "masculist" column (in a portio of which, I reviewed this very site), and that was it. The column got a TREMENDOUS response from both men and women, but it scared my liberal feminist editors, so I was silenced (and still am) on these issues in that paper.
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"when, after weeks had already passed, i learned of the boulder library exhibit, i immediately saw the break for which i have been praying for a very long time, and began organizing an effective response, beginning with prodding local boulder men to exchange information and ideas in preparation for a non-violent protest
"by the upcoming weekend i was certain that even a small protest would have an enormous impact that would make national news, and finally move men’s activism firmly from cyberspace into the streets, and from their into the national consciousness – all it would have taken was this spark, and silenced, cowed, depressed males from all over colorado, and the nation, would have been emboldened either to join the protest, or to protest in their own way, in their own time"
As I have stated elsewhere on this site, we had a small demonstration. Unfortunately, it neither made national news nor moved men's activism from cyberspace into the streets and from there into the national consciousness. I would like to believe that organizing a demonstration, which would have such an impact, could be done so easily. Yes, Angelucci said that he would come to a demonstration, provided it was planned in advance so he could get here, and that he might be able to bring a few other people, but I don't see that this would have added earth shaking results.
If you know how to organize such a powerful and influential demonstration, please do so. Though the ceramic penises were taken and then turned over to the police, the topic is still quite hot here. Bob continues to be interviewed. The cold won't stop me or any other determined man. Please, mount the demonstration. I'll be there.
Thomas
P.S. Does anyone else have practical advice on how to mount such a demonstration?
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Here are two ideas that would get attention for the movement by getting national press coverage:
- Start a class-action lawsuit against the NOW for 30 years of slander.
- Start a class-action lawsuit against the Department of Education for failing to provide gender-appropriate education for boys and for failing to move against the use of narcotics to suppress normal behavior of boys.
Either of these suits would get national media coverage and create public awareness of some problems. They could also actually pressure the organizations so to change their ways.
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"- Start a class-action lawsuit against the NOW for 30 years of slander.
"- Start a class-action lawsuit against the Department of Education for failing to provide gender-appropriate education for boys and for failing to move against the use of narcotics to suppress normal behavior of boys."
These are great ideas. Now how to we go about implementing them? Does anyone know any lawyers who would take the cases for free or for remuneration, provided there would be any, contingent upon a successful suit?
Do any systems exist for us to collect donations for lawyers to take the case? If not, how do we go about setting up such funds? Any other ideas?
Let's try to be specific.
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Re: Attorneys for the Lawsuits
The attorney would need to be someone who has a track record in winning for causes that are just, but not "politically correct."
For example, Atlanta attorney Lee Parks, successfully sued the University of Georgia for an admissions policy that discrimminates against whites. This case was successful in changing the attitudes of a lot of people in Georgia, and in changing the attitudes of a lot of people in education. Lee Parks is profiled in the current issue of "Atlanta Magazine."
The book "Talking Back to Ritalin" describes a class-action suit against Novartis, the manufacturer of Ritalin, for over-drugging children. Perhaps the same attorneys would handle the suits I propose. The book lists the following contact information:
C. Andrew Waters and Peter Krause
Waters & Krause
4897 West Lover's Lane
Dallas, Texas 75209
(214) 357-6244
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For item#2 - Class action lawsuit against against D of E -
I am willing to pledge 200 calls and/or visits to attorneys offices in Bay Area/Calif.
This is right up my alley since I'm most concerned for my boy's schooling. If something else is more appropriate, I'll do it.
Anna
PS: Someone should call the ACLU just to be able to say later "the ACLU told put a cork in it".
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Anna,
In a time when male children are increasingly driven to murder-suicide in desperation over the horrible treatment in schools, your concern is well-founded.
Here's an interesting book on the brain differences between girls and boys and how to create gender-appropriate education for all children: "Boys and Girls Learn Differently!" by Michael Gurian.
For information on feminist-driven abuse of male children in schools, see "The War on Boys" by Christina Sommers.
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Yep, you gotta watch out for that whiner label. It's a knee-jerk reaction some people have to those who stand up for themselves.
But you know, there is another label we should watch out for- "overwrought"
You sound like an extremely well-educated person, and there are some who might say you also sound like a show-off. But hey, if you got the juice, bleed it. Just watch out, because some might say you're attempting to confuse with your verbosity and/or to bloat a flimsy argument with ten-dollar words. I wouldn't say so, but the same who would say you are whining might. It may seem like I'm picking on a minor point here, but you're not the only one around here who writes this way. Try to make your opinions accesible.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday November 27, @03:51AM EST (#50)
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What the Men's Movement really needs are male intellectuals--not pseudo-intellectuals, but highly intelligent, articulate professional intellectuals--professors of philosophy, sociology, English, economics, anything that is remotely related to the humanities. These people influence the students who go on to run corporations, form the middle class, and teach in the public schools.
The Men's Movement needs to focus on developing an intellectual base of high quality scholars. We need intellectual leadership--we need writers who can pen something as forceful as but more academic than Farrell's Why Men Are the Way They Are.
My point is that I'm under the impression that right now the Men's Movement--if you can call it that--is spinning its wheels and lacks direction and content--it's like a bunch of people saying they want identical rights for both genders but without having any roadmap of how to get there while engaging in haphazard activism.
We need intellectual leadership--we need a coherent vision of what we want to accomplish, why our cause is logically and morally right, and how to get there.
Until that happens the "men's movement" will go nowhere--it will just be an amorphous mass of various ineffectual factions, and on a whole it will be intellectually bankrupt.
My solution? Someone needs to establish an organization to promote men's issues intellectually. We need an organization that will support scholars who can conduct academic studies. We need an organization that will help them publish editorials in newspapers. And we need an organization that knows how to prosyletize and reach young males. Most importantly, an organization like this can try to help put our intellectuals--our PhDs, into the universities as professors (that requires fighting both the monopoly held by the feminists and the Marxists, but it can be done).
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Does any one else remember a song called 'The Will To Fail', sung by Katie Lee and taken from an album called 'Songs Of Couch And Consultation'?
"I've got the will to fail, the will to fail,
I secretly am enjoying myself
while slowly I am destroying myself,
I think I've got a tiger by the tail,
a tiger called the will to fail."
I think the men's (lack of) movement should adopt this as its theme song.
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DaveW.
I am beyond concerned. I'm frieghtened. I've been looking at this web page and it's posts for a few weeks now and I just can't see any real progress. Maybe I am missing something or just too 'newbie'. But I'm not going to come back here for a long while because it is too agrivating. I've got 4 years to go before my precious boy will enter a boy hating school system and I'm not going to waste my precious time on inaction.
I'm going to launch my own war in my own neck of the woods. I'm going to attack the hat vendor who wants to sell a hat that says "Men are animals... but some make good pets." Then I'm going to call all the colleges who keep sending my teen daughter info about females in engineering programs and the like and ask if they have similar programs for male achievement in literature, teaching and leadership. When I get laughed at I'm going to write the papers. And when they laugh at me I'm going to ??? Next I'm going to somehow take on the school issue (Ritalin, low expectations, 'take your daughter to work day', etc).
I don't know how I'm going to do it but seeing all these posts, all this brain power, all this good intention, all this intellectualism, and nothing FOR ME to DO about it is making my stomach turn.
impatiently yours,
Anna
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I think the men's (lack of) movement should adopt this as its theme song.
Listen, Uberganger, I'm as upset as anyone about our obvious problems with getting people to take action, but I do resent pepole bitching about it who cannot, in the same post, recommend a solution for it.
If you want movement, man, then by all means MOVE. If you want action, then by all means ACT. Don't just sit their and complain about other people *not* doing so.
I have the YWCA's CEO backed up against a wall right now. And with the surge of letters they're getting and the attention those letters are GOING to get in print this week, then the battle escalates.
Yes, we need action... but we also need to take it a step at a time.
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I'm going to launch my own war in my own neck of the woods. I'm going to attack the hat vendor who wants to sell a hat that says "Men are animals... but some make good pets." Then I'm going to call all the colleges who keep sending my teen daughter info about females in engineering programs and the like and ask if they have similar programs for male achievement in literature, teaching and leadership. When I get laughed at I'm going to write the papers. And when they laugh at me I'm going to ??? Next I'm going to somehow take on the school issue (Ritalin, low expectations, 'take your daughter to work day', etc).
I don't know how I'm going to do it but seeing all these posts, all this brain power, all this good intention, all this intellectualism, and nothing FOR ME to DO about it is making my stomach turn.
impatiently yours,
Taking action locally is certainly a terrific approach, Anna. I must point out, though, that you have apparently missed Thomas' efforts to create a protest at the Boulder Public Library, and my actions against the YWCA's hate campaign against boys if you truly believe that no one is doing anything.
As I told Uberganger, there IS a problem with apathy among men in the men's movement, for certain. I didn't get NEARLY the response I had hoped for with the YWCA thing, but I'm not letting it get me down. I'll fight them on my own if I have to.
I'm only one man, but I can complain loud and long. And outside of launching this type of negative PR campaign against the YWCA, what else can be done to them? I can't afford an attorney to sue them for slander, and such a lawsuit would serve only as a campaign against free speech, which I am not.
First, I must change minds.
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annadiller:
It's great to see the passion in your words. Please do write letters. It will help. And, if you can, try to enlighten the other parents that you know about what boys face today. I'd recommend reading Christina Hoff Sommers' book, "The War Against Boys," perhaps as a group and then take action locally. And never hesitate to write to us here for suggestions, support, whatever.
Your son does face a hell if we don't turn the tide against hate, but I honestly believe that we are doing that. As I've said on this site before, I've been speaking out against the hatefulness of mainstream feminism since the late 1970s and it is only now that we are seeing the egalitarian movement rise up.
Keep the faith, Anna. We are fighting to protect your son. His chances are far better than those of boys who've entered school during the last decade.
We won't desert him.
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DaveW:
I like your idea of contacting attorneys to take up one of the suits that you propose. Why don't you get in touch with them and let us know what happens?
Marc Angelucci, do you have any suggestions for Dave before he proceeds?
Give 'em hell, Dave.
Hey, should we have a separate theme for the battles being fought by those who contribute to mensactivism.com (Nightmist's battle with the YWCA, my attempt to mount a demonstration at the BPL)? It could be great to educate us about what we're doing right, what we're doing wrong and just general support and encouragement.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday November 27, @06:41PM EST (#57)
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I am a moderate when it comes to gender issues. I don't like extreme masculism anymore than extreme feminism. I don't agree at all with your feeling that femininity inherently wants to destroy masculininity. I think there are more people who feel like I do, than are on one side or the other. So if you consider yourself an extremist, you'll have to accept the fact that most people won't share all your views. You are going to get criticism. Even moderates get criticism. That's just the way it is. That's not being shamed into silence. It's just people saying they don't agree with you. If it upsets you, you can always click away from their posts. If you expect that everyone should agree with you 100% on all issues, you're in for a very unhappy road. good luck.
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Which is why I'm speaking up now. :)
Hello, All. This is (obviously) my first post. At the beginning the question was posed as to how mesactivism.org could be made better for us Newbies. Well, here's my suggestions:
1. Expand the FAQ. Having the "Our Philosophy" section is FANTASTIC. But if people just go to the FAQ, they miss all the information that's in the "Philosophy" section. A link to the "Philosophy" section to the FAQ (and vice versa) is needed.
2. Don't let threads get hijacked! This one is a perfect example. We started out with "how do we help newbies and expand readership" and now we're in left field, totally away from the original topic. While it's true that conversations have an ebb and flow (and the conversation is interesting, believe me!) if it wanders away from the original topic too long, then the point of the thread is lost.
3. The website has enough "how to" stuff to kill a horse! Well done!
The most important thing is what was mentioned in the original post. Be inviting and accepting of new people. Point out information they might be interested in and answer their questions. Encourage them to post and discuss their opinions and views.
Thanks for setting up the website and providing such a great forum and service!!
Regards,
Morlith
Note to self: Sarcasm is highly ineffective against stupid people.
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We at least have Warren Farrell and Adam Jones, who studied how mainstream media emphasizes the gender of war victims (and victims of violence generally) when their gender happens to be female, and suppresses or underplays the gender of war victims when their gender happens to be male.
One such study is available on the web at
http://adamjones.freeservers.com/effacing.htm; I'll take the opportunity here to state that Jones should be credited for pointing out anti-male bias in media reporting of victimization experiences, depending on gender.
I'm tempted to append the previous sentence as a comment to the other stories here on the under-reporting of the victimization of Afghan men, in contrast to the treatment that female Afghan war victims receive in the press. We should encourage our intellectual allies, and one way we can do that is by citing them. Is it my imagination, or did the letter writing campaigns begin after links to Jones's work was published here and absorbed by the men's movement? Correct me if I'm mistaken.
By the way, I'm a mathematician (I have Erdos Number Two), but I'm not in the humanities.
One further thing: I point out, without rancor, that the anonymous author of "Male Intellectuals Needed" wants someone [else] to "need" to "...establish an organization to promote men's issues intellectually." I'll spell it out: his (or her) desire is someone else's necessity; this is not a rhetorical device I'd use myself, apropos of men's rights advocates projecting an appropriately constructive image.
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By the way, I'm a mathematician (I have Erdos Number Two), but I'm not in the humanities.
I intended to point out earlier to Anonymous that (one of) my majors was English, and I'm considering pursuing my masters therein so that I may teach it. :)
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Do you have any examples of specific, cited text for which you would offer constructive criticism?
I attempt to be concise, lucid and accessible, and I use language that comes easily and naturally to me; my use of language is hardly the most erudite imaginable. I wish I could edit some of my posts ex post facto--it's too easy to hit the Submit button.
In any case, I'm always attempting to improve my writing, despite having hated my English professors (one of them accused me of not appropriately citing some other scholar in reference an original passage of mine; another one showed insufficient reverence for the sum total of human knowledge by offering his class a list of resources for researching any subject in the Library of Congress subject classification). In fact, at the risk of offending writers, most of the writers I've known were more interested in being writers than in anything they wrote about, unless they were writing about being writers. Humanists can be such divisive, inhuman hateful monsters, but I digress. Allow me one more digression: the more I improve my writing, the more I abhor writers.
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Do you have any examples of specific, cited text for which you would offer constructive criticism?
Nah. You read well enough for me, and I've taken to not criticizing anyone's use of language on the Net, considering it is also all too easy for me to click that submit button before I've fully edited my work. ;)
Allow me one more digression: the more I improve my writing, the more I abhor writers.
Heh. Well, I hope you'll forgive me that particular occupation considering that my other is as an IT manager (for the same company). :)
My father was a math major, by the way. If it hadn't been for him, I never would've made it through high school algebra. My dad taught it the way I later discovered college professors do: straightforward. My high school instructor attempted to teach us vocabulary and algebra at the same time, which was nothing if not confusing.
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I was responding to someone else's reply to the great post Launch on whining.
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First of all, I don't know if there's a better way of doing this, but I wanted to email DaveW but I don't see any way of doing that.
Anyway, my question is where is this book "Talking Back to Ritalin". I've looked on Amazon and other places and can't find it. I would be interested in putting an e-book on Ritalin on cyberManbooks.com.
rcuttill@cyberManbooks.com
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My problem with the Men's Movement is that I've never seen anything less like a movement. I've been in or around political parties, volunteer groups and clubs. All of these make at least some attempt to recruit people and some attempt to meet and motivate members. The men's movement seems at times publicity shy and not too worried about members; and they seem to lack the one thing that works for men in every other sphere - teamwork; after all we've been the hunters for 3 (or 6 :-) ) millions years. At times it seems like men are acting like outcasts and seem to have some deep seated urge to prove themselves individually and therefore cannot operate as a team.
At times it is like that scene from Monty Python's Life of Brian. That scene where the 2 rival Judean rebel groups met while both are trying to kidnap the Roman governor's wife and instead of combining they immediately attack each other. Two Roman guards wander along and watch in wry amusement, as the 2 anti-Roman groups club each other senseless. The Roman guards clearly think that no Judean group is going to successfully rebel as long as they keep fighting each other. For Romans read Feminists.
The plans for action I've seen often are decided upon by someone self appointed who only wants followers. This is not the way to get independently minded men to work together. It's like when someone says lets have action everyone rushes off in a different direction.
We could do with copying political parties or volunteer groups as far as spreading the word and engaging members. We could even, dare I say it, learn from the feminists. We need social gatherings/meetings as part of a network of a democratic units. Gatherings/meetings where ideas and policies are discussed and the various groups liase and put their ideas together and some consensus is worked out, that a large number of men can support and take action. It must be democratic and represent as many men as possible. It must not be autocratic. It only needs to be a few men in each place and soon something approaching a united men's movement could grow up.
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