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Definitely sounds like a worthwhile discussion. Unfortunately, I may not be able to make it. One of my local art theaters is showing a special preview screening of "Enterprise" tonight. at 6 p.m. CT ;)
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Since I also won't be able to participate in the chat tonight, I'll simply put my two cents in here:
As I've said before, I don't believe that women will ever be drafted, because we'll always find a good reason not to do it. Also, as much as I wish that the draft could be abolished, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing so. It's unfortunate, but sometimes the draft is necessary.
Still, I think women should still be forced to register for Selective Service, even if nothing came of it. The reason? Because it would be a real learning experience for the young women of America to know what it's like to live with the possibility that they could be drafted. I want to see them sweat, just like millions of young American men are sweating right now, and have sweated before on previous occasions. I want them to get a real taste of equality, and decide for themselves whether or not they really want it. And if they don't want it, perhaps it will give them a more humble attitude, and make them easier to live with in the future.
Also, if the draft comes, then I think it will be high time to give the so-called "feminists" an ultimatum: Either they put their money where their mouths are and rally fervently for women to be included in the draft - even if it leads to nothing - or they sit down and shut the hell up. You can't have the cake and eat it, too.
Again, I don't believe that women actually will be drafted, but I do think that making women eligible would be a very effective and educational "gesture", as it were, and a chance to finally separate the true feminists from the ones who are all talk.
Finally - there is another, very important "gender issue" (or a potential gender issue) involving the draft that has me a bit concerned. It used to be that young men could be deferred from the draft if they were full-time college students. Since the end of Vietnam, the rules have changed so that a college student can only postpone his service until the end of the current semester. Assuming that this policy won't change in the event of a possible future draft, this could give women (who already outnumber men in college) an outrageously unfair advantage. Think about it - virtually every able-bodied young male will have to postpone college until he completes his military service (which he might not survive to do!), while all of his female contemporaries will be allowed to attend college, straight out of high school and with no strings attached. Does this mean what I think it could mean? Please correct me if my logic is wrong - because I would really like to know that I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.
I don't think there's much point in debating the draft and its sexist policies. The shadow of the draft is always going to haunt the young men of the world, so long as there are powerful scumbags who want to destroy other countries, and who unfortunately have the provisions to do so. What I'm concerned about is: If and when the draft does return to consume another generation of young men, are we going to allow the female half of that generation to take such horrendous advantage of it?
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday September 26, @03:28PM EST (#3)
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I'll also comment here, since I can't come to chat tonight.
I am totally against women being drafted. It would be nice if the draft were ended completely, but even if it's not, I don't want women drafted. I feel very strongly that a battlefield is no place for a woman. Women are too physically and psychologically weak to withstand the rigors of battle. They would not help the war effort, they'd just die.
OTOH, we men have the brawn and brains to handle it. The job of the woman is to keep the home fires burning, and care for the children, until her man returns home from war. The job of the man is to protect his wife and children, and provide for them. My wife and I live a very traditional lifestyle. She is a stay at home wife and mother, and I am the breadwinner. I love my role as protector and provider. I do not want my wife to work, ever. She already works in our home. Taking care of me and the kids is her job.
I have never heard anyone address the issue of what happens to children when both their parents are sent to war, and especially after both parents are killed. I am assuming they would be put in orphanages. I DO NOT WANT MY CHILDREN RAISED BY STRANGERS IN AN INSTITUTION. I can't believe that any parent would want that, and I'm guessing that the guys who want to draft women, are not fathers. It would be awful if my kids lost their daddy in war, but it would be worse if my kids were also told that mommy's not coming home either. I'm sorry, but the government has no right to kill both a child's parents, and I can't believe there are people out there who don't care about what happens to these kids. I also can't believe there are men out there who don't care if their wives are sent to war, then captured, beaten, raped by 20 enemy men, maybe even forced to have an enemy's baby, and then killed.
I do care about what happens to my son and daughters, as well as my wife. If they ever did include women in a draft, I would send my wife and kids away to Mexico or Canada. If they put me in jail for that, fine. My family comes first, and I have no respect for a country that punishes me for protecting my family.
I dont want my wife dead and my kids in an institution. I am willing to go to prison for the rest of my life, I'm even willing to die to prevent this from happening to them. I love them, and I'm sorry, but any man who wants to draft his wife and orphan his children, doesn't love them. I am the provider, protector and head of my household, but just because I am the dominant spouse in my household, doesn't mean I disrespect my wife, or abuse her. God gave woman to man to be his partner, not to be his whipping board.
Carl
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I have never heard anyone address the issue of what happens to children when both their parents are sent to war,
Used to be that the military would send home the last sons if all the sons of a family had been drafted and the rest of them had been killed in combat. Certainly, someone would have to stay home with the kids if both women and men were drafted.
Think about this, though: there are fewer and fewer couples getting married these days. There are fewer and fewer couples having children. Those who are getting married and having children are doing so later in their lives than ever before (post draft age in many, many cases). I think it's less likely to be an issue than you think.
In any case, I support the abolition of the draft. If men want to fight, let them fight. If women want to fight, let them fight. If we don't want to fight, leave us alone.
God gave woman to man to be his partner, not to be his whipping board.
Yet men have become the whipping boys of women in all kinds of ways these days: from divorce to outrageous child support to false accusations of sexual misconduct and rape. If God gave man to woman so he can be her slave like that, or the drone bee of a military in a war he does not support, the God is an ass.
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( I don't know if I'm doing this in the right place- but I want for my views and questions to be expressed in public. Post these comments to the website somewhere, and if our readers like it they could amplify and repeat some of these issues.)
The draft issue has come up in some publications, like www.Salon.com and the Chicago Tribune. I sprang into action and sent some letters off. I have saved this correspondence to share with our readership, because it is very difficult to publish views which are critical of American women in our media. If any MensActivism readers like some of the things I have said, then email or write these entities to tell them that there is a constituency for such views! Also, pass it on!
Note that I don't exactly weigh in on whether women should be included or not, but I do expose a lot of the hypocrisy and pretension that surrounds our "thinking" ont this issue!
(To the Chicago Tribune)
RE Dennis Byrne's article on Sep24, "A round of thanks to America's young", where he advocates a male only draft)
Here we go again! It's sad to reflect that at times of real national crisis, it invariably falls upon men to pay the real price! Thirty years of feminist hot air mean nothing in times of great danger- it's always up to men to be the real victims and fall guys. If we continue to talk about a draft in the future, we cannot ignore the gender role implications, and so I will continue to raise them.
Question One: Is feminism a "belle weather" phenomenon? Do women need a long period of peace and prosperity in order to "safely" raise the equality argument?(Personally I hope not!)
Question Two: What moral standing do women have in the future to raise equality issues and gender role dissatisfaction when men and only men are required to fight?
Question Three: Are men the Disposable Sex?
Question Four: What future does equality feminism have in the wake of a male only draft? I really fear for a backlash against gender equality and women. If you think men are angry now, wait until they come back from a war that only they were required to fight in!
Dennis Byrne argues that women should be excluded from the draft because they are "nurterers". The problem with such an argument is that it is being selectively invoked; Byrne would not have dared use that as an excuse to exclude women from other hazardous duty occupations. Should we bar women from being police officers? Are they unsuitable to be firefighters? Can a "nurterer" be any good at arresting bad guys? Should the women who are already in the military get out before the shooting starts? Would Byrne like to see the many service women aboard our battle groups, including the ones that are authorized to fly combat missions be evacuated out of harms way? Why have women in the military at all?
Squeamishness about seeing women drafted is not based upon their suitability to be soldiers; women have shown that they could perform and do as ordered. Many served very honorably in the Gulf war. Wanting to restrict conscription to men is actually based upon a deeply sentimental notion that women's lives are more worthy of protection and saving than men's. Men are taken to be more disposable, itself a very dangerous and dehumanizing idea. We will see what American women are made of as this crisis continues. If they stand by and let men be used by their government as they did in the past, there will be long term social consequences. September 11, 2001 may prove to be the "Pearl Harbor" for American feminism! What may have gotten bombed was the notion that "women could do anything men can, only better."!
Les Farkas
(To www.Salon.com)
Re: Janelle Brown's Hell No, We Won't Go-Yet
It's sad to reflect that at times of real national crisis, it invariably falls upon men to pay the real price! Thirty years of feminist hot air mean nothing in times of great danger- it's always up to men to be the real victims and fall guys. The references made in the article to draft age women and to the possibility of women being included struck me as quaint; what planet do these people come from? There is NO possibility that such a thing would ever be enacted into law in our society!
Women have a lot of thinking to do before they decide to bash men over every little thing. As for men, we are the Disposable Sex. We are the rubbish that goes down the chute whenever the going really gets tough. God help us!
(Follow up correspondence, quoted in part:)
...I know women are capable and willing of serving their country and facing danger. Many would go if asked to, but I remain deeply cynical about whether this society could ever bring itself to require such a duty from females. I believe half the female population in this country is opposed in principle to such a thing. Many would rather see a male of any age be compelled to go before them, however young or old , be he a ten year old child or a ninety year old man. It's what they think men are for! If you think this is a cruel exaggeration, think again. This has happened often in war zones in times recent and not so recent.
Oh Janelle, it can be a cruel world! Thanks for hearing me out.
Re: Ann Marsh's article on ex-es calling ex in the wake of the tragedy)
I think what motivated so many women to tenderly start calling the men in their lives in the wake of this tragedy was the realization that we are at war- and women realize just what that means in practical terms. It means men disappearing, getting killed and paying the real price! Perhaps there is just a small tinge of guilt somewhere in their hearts for all the petty and mean spirited bashing and sniping at men that became all the vogue in recent years. One can sense how shallow a lot of male bashing was now that many females realize that you cannot take it for granted that men will always be around to make fun of. The longer peace and prosperity continued, and the more concessions we made to feminine sensibilities, the more men became fair game for every type of gratuitous ridicule and sniping. It took a very sad incident like the terrorist attacks, along with the fear of a war lasting years in which men might have to be drafted, to finally induce some humility and shame in our women. American women have become the equivalent of a matriarchal Taliban, proclaiming themselves Goddesses while belittling men. These crusaders for Total Female Control have now had their comuppance-- they are faced with a dangerous situation that can't be handled by women alone! "Girl Power"?! "A woman can do anything a man can do only better!"! "Chicks Rule"? Go prove it in the mountains of Afghanistan!!
I hope this gets us all thinking and involved! I feel that this culture should either make women live up to all the grand attitude and rhetoric, or we should acknowledge that men have special usefulness, and are therefore more worthy of honor than they have been getting lately! Les Farkas
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by Anonymous User on Friday September 28, @12:14AM EST (#6)
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God isn't an ass, humans are the asses. God didn't create the draft, humans did. God gave humans free will, for good or for bad. The problems you mentioned with divorce and child support are also created by humans, not God, and IMO it is because we strayed from God's values that we have all these problems. Women were never supposed to go compete with men in the work world, and men were never supposed to do womens work. My marriage is happy because my wife and I realize these things. We follow the roles we were meant to follow. I don't act like a woman, and she doesn't act like a man.
If we return to traditional roles and values, all these problems will disappear. Everyone is unhappy because too many people are going totally against what God and nature intended. A man can never be happy with his wife as provider and protector. A woman can never be happy with a man she has to provide for and protect. That's just the way it is, and I don't know why everyone keeps denying that.
Carl
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